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The Needle And the Damage Done Fingers or Pick? (H) Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   mattwatt Icon

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 07:21 PM

I just watched Neil Young's Unplugged concert and i'm totaly amazed at the way he played this song unsure.gif

I though it was a finger picking song, but he played it with a pick in a style i totaly dont understand (I'm still such a learner tongue.gif )

I was wondering how to learn to play like that. He seems to strum steadily the whole way through but manages to hit single Bass notes when he needs ....... blink.gif ....... When I try that when strumming I always hit at least 2 or 3 Bass note instead of 1 rolleyes.gif I thought maybe he was muting some of the strings so he doesn't need to be as accurate....... I mean, how do you strum and only hit say the D string unsure.gif ..... that would take unbelievable accuracy...... but maybe thats just cos Im still a beginner

I hope people know what im on about here smile.gif

Thanks smile.gif
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#2 User is offline   Willy Clancy Icon

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 11:47 PM

He's unreal.
And now I'm lying here I've had too much booze
I've been shat on and spat on and raped and abused
I know that I am dying and I wish I could beg
For some money to take me from the old main drag


Shane MacGowan
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#3 User is offline   grzegorz_panek Icon

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Posted 24 March 2005 - 07:03 AM

Everything is a matter of practice, few things are impossible, really.

And not to came up with an overgeneralised statement like that, I just want to say practice the picking hand. Many players just focus on left hand fretwanking, and right hand is just as important, in different styles it'as even more important than the left one.
"Grzeg (...) spending years in the Vistula River Delta picking Miss Takamine with a bottle-neck on his finger!)" - Dadfad
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#4 User is offline   dadfad Icon

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Posted 24 March 2005 - 08:20 AM

QUOTE (grzegorz_panek @ Mar 24 2005, 07:03 AM)
Everything is a matter of practice, few things are impossible, really.

And not to came up with an overgeneralised statement like that, I just want to say practice the picking hand. Many players just focus on left hand fretwanking, and right hand is just as important, in different styles it'as even more important than the left one.


Exactly. Only (almost only) when you are a beginner to intermediate guitarist is the left hand the "most important hand". Once you reach a certain skill-level, it's assumed your left-hand already knows by now how to fret and change properly, etc. The technique and skill of the right picking-hand is then seen as the most important hand in playing. Experienced guitarists when watching another experienced guitarist (in concert, informally, whatever) will concentrate mostly on watching the player's right hand. He already assumes he will be able to find and fret the chords, etc. As the Reverend Gary Davis once said "The left hand is your brain, the right hand is your style and your personality. And that dammed Blind Blake... That sonnofabitch sure had a "sportin' " right hand."
Un-plugged is not the same as
never-was-plugged-in-to-begin-with.

John Jackson -My Teacher and My Old Friend

When the roll is called up yonder he'll be there
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#5 User is offline   mattwatt Icon

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Posted 24 March 2005 - 05:53 PM

smile.gif , I been trying to improve with my right hand but its so frustrating.... I'm trying to get some kind of percussiony sound while strumming

I can change chords perfectly but without an added something from the right hand I think it just sounds very plain sometimes huh.gif

I dont know where to find lessons on this, all strumming lessons ive found are based around the whole strumming pattern thing........but never anything about a style of strumming.

Thanks for your replies smile.gif
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#6 User is offline   dadfad Icon

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Posted 24 March 2005 - 06:25 PM

The simplest way to begin to go beyond simply strumming is to first start just arpeggiating through the chord (which means strum slow enough so that you can hear each note as an individual note instead of just part of the whole chord) (actually it means other things too, but that's what it means in this post). Anyway, that allows you to "open up" the chord. Now, especially on slower tunes at first, you might want to play some of those notes within that chord in a certain sequence, or pattern. All within the same time-space as the whole chord would normally take up (which is why slow tunes are best to start with). Because you are holding the right chord, there is no such thing as a "wrong note" as you pick. Because every note available is contained in that chord. One way might sound more pleasing than another maybe, but it won't be "wrong".

Another way to begin to differentiate from just a fully strummed chord is to separate the chord rhythmically. Think of a simple 1-2-3-4 rhythm like this instead... boom-chuck boom-chuck. Now, try playing the "booms" emphasizing the thick bassier strings, and then the "chuck" emphasizing the thinner treblier strings. You don't have to hit a perfect 6/5/4-strings and then 3/2/1-strings as you do it just aim for those areas (on the "boom" the 6-string is by far the most important string to hit). Once you have the hang of that sort of, try making the separation a little different. Like ONLY the 6-string on the "boom" and all (or some of) the other strings on the "chuck". Experiment a bit.

Once you can get a "mental separation" going good, then you can start to get more "creative".... being selective with certain notes to more closely follow the actual full-melody line. Or add little flourishes, like hammer-ons or pulloffs as you chord. Here's a good example. I'm going to use the tune "Hey Joe". In its simplest form, it is slowly playing the progression C-G-D-A-E....

[C] Hey [G]Joe, [D] where you [A]goin' with that [E]gun in your hand.....etc

If you play that slowly, using nothing but a single chord where shown it will "work" as a tune. But in a "bare-bones" kind of way. In the same "time-space" that each of those individual chords takes up, you could also add a number of little things to "spice it up". A few years ago I did a tab for an acoustic-version of Hey Joe with a number of different little things, like hammers, rhythmic separation of notes, etc. I'll find it and copy it below. Now it might (or might not) be a little farther ahead than it should be if you're just strumming chords at this point, but it does give some good examples of things that can be done within a chord and that chord's "time-space" in the tune. It really isn't that difficult anyway. I'll find and copy it here.

Breaking out of the "strum-mode" is a big break-through in how your playing sounds. (In my opinion playing with fingers allows you to do a lot more than using a pick, even adding another finger or so, but that's just a matter of opinion and debate in another topic. An awful lot can be done with a flat-pick too.) Anyway, hopefully some of this will help a little.

(If the format is jacked around on this, just copy it to Notepad (Courier New 10 Font)

CODE
#----------------------------------PLEASE NOTE--------------------------------#
# This file is the author's own work and represents his interpretation of the #
# song. It is intended for private study, scholarship or research only.       #
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------#

Author/Artist: Traditional/Billy Roberts
Title: Hey Joe Acoustic Arrangement
Arranged and Transcribed by: John M. (Dadfad)
Email: duolian@msn.com or Dadfad@dadfad.com


HEY JOE (Traditional Western Folk -Billy Roberts credited with modern version
        as recorded by The Byrds, The Leaves, Music Machine and Jimi Hendrix)
        Arranged and Tabbed by Dadfad (John M) 06/13/02

This arrangement is slow to moderate, an old-time hammer-to-3rds-and-5ths style
of the old Appalachian blue-ballad form. Though the rhythm's a very simple 1-2
3-4, it's not easy to show in tablature because at times there may be several
open-to-hammer movements within a space of one actual beat. It's probably best
to approach this arrangement played very slowly to develop a feel of how to put
them together within the beats. This is a very improvisational style and these
hammer-flourishes should be played as felt, adding, ommitting or changing their
use at will. This tab is meant to be more of a suggestion toward the style than
a carved-in-stone note-for-note text.

The symbols used in the tab notation are as follows:
* XhX =hammer from a note (held or open) to the next as one tone, ex. 0h2 is
 hammer from open to second fret quickly. A note played with a space before a
 hammer will be shown as 0---h3, meaning play 0 distinctly then hammer a 3.
* (up) and ^ show direction of the strum. ^ is normal and (up) of course, is
 up! Where not shown, like on partial-chord strums,etc it can be assumed to be
 the normal down-strum (or as felt appropriate).
* The \ means slide down to (toward the nut), for example \2 means slide down
 to 2. A suggested slide-from note is in (), like (4)\2 meaning slide to the
 2 coming down from the 4 with the 4 being sounded slightly in the process.
* The ~~ means to use an obvious vibrato, maybe a little more than what might
 normally be used on a single note.
* An XbXbX means bend from one note up to the next and relax the bend back to
 the start-from note, like 2b3b2 is play 2 and bend to the tone of the 3 and
 then let it relax back to the 2 note.
* These hammers are easiest played while holding a certain position, usually a
 chord. This position will be shown at the beginning of a series of licks with
 the notes in (), like this for example (a G-chord):

-(3)---
-(3)---
-(0)---
-(0)---
-(2)---
-(3)---

 It doen't mean to play that chord or figure, just to start that sequence in  
 that position so as to be able to play the following series of licks easily.
* a few other simple notes - an (X) or X doesn't mean to mute that string, just
 it is not played or held. I like the G chord 320033 with the added 5th, but
 this is just my preference and of course is optional. To me, not only does it
 sound better, it starts the fingers in a position that's easier to work the
 hammering, etc from. A slow arpeggiated strum is shown across the tab-staff
 with the notes slightly staggered diagonally toward the right.
* On the instrumental closing, the chords are extended. For example a G to C
 extension will take up approximately the same space and beats as the normal
 full progession to allow for more expression within the extension.

These hammers work well within this tune because of the dual relationships of
of the notes. Notes hammered into the C pentatonic is also the blues pent scale
of the A, the G pent notes are the blues pent notes of the E, which is the key
of the tune. These relationships add the blues-feel to a typically country and
western progression, which gives the traditional blue-ballad style its feeling.

(Instrumental Lead-In)
1)-(0)---------------------------(3)---------3---3(up)--(2)--2----------------
2)-(1)---------------------------(3)---------3---3------(3)--3---3----3----3--
3)-(0)----------0--0h2--0--------(0)------0--0---0------(2)--2--2h4---2----0--
4)-(2)------0h2------------0h2-0-(0)---0--0--0---0------(0)--0----------------
5)-(3)----3----------------------(2)--0h2---------------(0)--0----------------
6)-(X)---------------------------(3)--------------------(X)-------------------


1)-(0)---------------------(0)--------0--0--0--0--0--0---0---0---0--0--0--0--|
2)-(2)----------2---2------(0)--------0--3--0--2--0--0--0h2-----0h2----2--0--|
3)-(2)--2---2---2--2h4--2--(1)--1--1-----------------------------------------|
4)-(2)--2--2h4----------2--(2)--2--2-----------------------------------------|
5)-(0)--0---------------0--(2)--2--2-----------------------------------------|
6)-------------------------(0)--0--0-----------------------------------------|

(First Vocal-Line)
1)-(0)-----------------------(3)--3-----------(2)---------------(0)-----------
2)-(1)-----------------------(3)--------------(3)---------------(2)-----------
3)-(0)-----------0-----0--0--(0)--0-------0---(2)--2--2h4--2--2-(2)--2--2--2-0
4)-(2)------2---0h2----2--0--(0)--0---0---0---(0)--0---0---0--0-(2)--2--2--2-0
5)-(3)--3---3----------3-----(2)--2--0h2------(0)--0------------(0)--0--0--0-0
6)-(X)-----------------------(3)--3-----------(X)---------------(X)-----------
......................Hey........ Joe,..........................where ya goin'


1)-----(0)------------------------0--0--0--0--0--0-|(0)--0---0----------------|
2)-----(0)------------------------0--3--0--2--0--0-|(3)-3h5--3----------------|
3)-----(1)-------------1---------------------------|(4)--------(4)\2--0-------|
4)-----(2)--2----------2-------2-------------------|---------------------2--0-|
5)-----(2)--2----------2-------2-------------------|--------------------------|
6)-----(0)--0------------------0-------------------|--------------------------|
.with  that gun in your hand?                        (turnaround back to the C)


(repeat the vocal-line licks, starting from the C chord thru E chord positions
for each vocal-line, using that C-G-D-A-E progression like this, with or with-
out the added hammers and other embellishments..............

  [C]Hey, [G]Joe. [D]Where you [A]goin' with that [E]gun in your hand.)



-HEY JOE-
-by Billie Roberts

Hey, Joe. Where you goin' with that gun in your hand.

Goin' down an' shoot my ol' lady. Caught her messin' round with another man.


Hey Joe, can you tell me where you gonna go?

Hey Joe, won't ya tell me where you gonna go?

I'm runnin' down to Mexico, find a place where I can be free.

Find a place where there ain't no hangman tryin' to put his noose around me.


1)-(0)------------------------------------------3--3---3(up)--3---------3---|
2)-(1)---------1-----1-----1----1--1------------3--3---3------3---------3---|
3)-(0)---------0----0h2---2h3---2--0--0---0--0--0--0---0------0---------0---|
4)-(2)----0h2------------------------0h2--2--0--0--0---0------0---------0---|
5)-(3)--3---------------------------------------2--2---2------2---------2---|
6)-(X)------------------------------------------3^-3-^-3------3^--------3^--|
(Play this C through G formation as a two chord extension)


1)-(0)-0-----------------------0--0---------------------------------|
2)-(3)-3--------3------3---3---3--3--3------------------------------|
3)-(2)-2-------2h4-----2---0---2--2--0---2---2---2--0--2---2----0---|
4)-(0)-0-----------------------0--0--0---2--2h4--2--0--2---2----0---|
5)-(0)-0---------------------------------0-------------0---0----3---|
6)-(X)--------------------------------------------------------------|
    (let ring)(Play this extended D through A formation two chord extension


1)--0-------0--------------------------------------------
2)--0-------0----(repeat---------------------------------
3)--1-------1----------chord-----------------------------
4)--2-------2--------------fading..)---------------------
5)--2-------2--------------------------------------------
6)--0-------0--------------------------------------------
...into a repeated E chord that fades out. Pause. And then play this...


1)--------------------3--5--5b6b5--p3-----------------------------------------
2)--------0---h3---5--------------------5--3----------------------------------
3)---------------------------------------------4---\2--0--2b3b2---0-----------
4)-------------------------------------------------------------------2--0-----
5)-------------------------------------------------------------------------2--
6)----------------------------------------------------------------------------
...single-string closing figure.


1)--------------------0--------------------0--0---||
2)-------------------0---------------------0--3---||
3)------------------1-----------------------------||
4)-----------------2------------------------------||
5)---0------------2-------------------------------||
6)-------3~~~----0--------------------------------||
into a slowly strummed full E chord....then....  End.

Un-plugged is not the same as
never-was-plugged-in-to-begin-with.

John Jackson -My Teacher and My Old Friend

When the roll is called up yonder he'll be there
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#7 User is offline   SmoothD Icon

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Posted 24 March 2005 - 06:29 PM

I agree with everything that's been posted here so far! As for me, I think that my playing improved when I forgot about fret work and started concentrating on strumming patterns. I'm still not there (might never be) but people are starting to recognize what I play and that's all that I've ever hoped for! Keep practicing! It pays off!

D
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#8 User is offline   Nintendo Freak Icon

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Post icon  Posted 24 March 2005 - 07:39 PM

Hey Mattwatt,
You can learn how to do like a bass strum or an alternating bass or you could learn
how to do an up stroke. I'm more of an advanced begginer and I can only show you
a bass strum, alternating bass strum, for only the "D, D7, G, G7, and C chords." Just
send me a personal message and I'll tell you.








Guitar Player (Still Learning!!!),
Nintendo Freak



P.S. I also reccomend Bert Casey, he is a genius at guitar! He has DVDs, Books, Videos, etc. for the bass, acoustic, electric guitars, the mandolin, and I think some other
speciality books smile.gif


Bon Scott. Ultimate Frontman. Ultimate Man.
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#9 User is offline   Pisswilly Icon

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Posted 24 March 2005 - 10:02 PM

I fingerpick this song, however you can tell by listening closely to the song that Mr. Young doesn't fingerpick it.
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#10 User is offline   mattwatt Icon

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Posted 25 March 2005 - 04:35 AM

Thanks dadfad for the great lesson, i'm very thankful smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

I'd been trying to experiment with chords it different ways such as what you wrote at the start of your post. What I was playing always sounded okie to me, but I never knew if it was correct from a theoretical point of view, so that always kinda put me off.

Thanks again dadfad, gonna start learning your tab now cool.gif smile.gif
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#11 User is offline   dadfad Icon

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Posted 25 March 2005 - 08:08 AM

Thanks, no problem. I hope it helps a little. A suggestion if you're trying to learn that tune to (or similar to) that tab. Start off playing it very slowly. Even though it is a fairly slow tune already, some of those chord time-spaces have a lot of moves within them that are sometimes played fairly rapidly to fit within the allotted time before the change to the next chord. At first you might even want to only use a couple of the "moves" within each chord-change. Anyway, I really like that tune because it can be taken from an extremely simple tune, which still holds up pretty well when played, to an extremely complex piece that can really show-case flat-picking (or fingerstyle). The tab above is kind of in that in-between level. Well beyond simple chording, but not tremendously difficult. Anyway, start it off slow (believe me, all those little notes, hammers, etc CAN fit within the allotted chord-change time-space!) and add a little at a time. It won't be long before you'll be adding even more of your own licks and flourishes to it!

(When I perform that tune and really "get into it", I can actually fit recognizeable licks and riffs from "And the Wind Cries Mary"; "Voodoo Chile"; "Foxy Lady"; and "I Hear My Train A 'Comin' " into the progression changes and still maintain the proper flow and structure. Almost like an old-time acoustic "Hendrix Medley" rolled into one tune! laugh.gif It's a great tune to work with.)
Un-plugged is not the same as
never-was-plugged-in-to-begin-with.

John Jackson -My Teacher and My Old Friend

When the roll is called up yonder he'll be there
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