[sunday_girl]

I've been a member here for quite a while now and been playing some time.
But I was wondering how many people take up guitar in their thirtys and beyond.
I started when I was 37 and spend as much time playing as I possibly can. but its not enough.
I read threads where people say that they play up to 10 hour days. if i get three i'm lucky.
I would love to go to college and study guitar seriously, but am worried that people will look on me as having no chance as I have left it so late.
I have loved the guitar from the moment i have picked it up , my electrics lie hanging on the wall and are probably going to stay there for a very long time.
The acoustic has so much to give, its tones and I cant put it into words how it sounds when i play it well.
After three years . things are still much too hard, that "hey joe" in fingerstyle is still driving me up the wall. I just cant get it up to any kind of reasonable speed.
And then i see people playing electic and flying along much faster than me i get desponded and think bad things for a while.
But i always pull myself through.

the point of this post is do other finger-stylists feel this way, the things we try to do are so hard and people (non playing ) think its nothing.
other guitarist look on it as the easy option and go "acoustic its easy" but they have no idea sometimes.
anyway what do others think on this subject.
Rachel

[shellshoe]

I've been a member here for quite a while now and been playing some time.
But I was wondering how many people take up guitar in their thirtys and beyond.
I started when I was 37 and spend as much time playing as I possibly can. but its not enough.
I read threads where people say that they play up to 10 hour days. if i get three i'm lucky.
I would love to go to college and study guitar seriously, but am worried that people  will look on me as having no chance as I have left it so late.
I have loved the guitar from the moment i have picked it up , my electrics lie hanging on the wall and are probably going to stay there for a very long time.
The acoustic has so much to give, its tones and I cant put it into words how it sounds when i play it well.
After three years . things are still much too hard, that "hey joe" in fingerstyle is still driving me up the wall. I just cant get it up to any kind of reasonable speed.
And then i see people playing electic and flying along much faster than me i get desponded and think bad things for a while.
But i always pull myself through.

the point of this post is do other finger-stylists feel this way, the things we try to do are so hard and people (non playing ) think its nothing.
other guitarist look on it as the easy option and go "acoustic its easy" but they have no idea sometimes.
anyway what do others think on this subject.
Rachel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

girlfriend, i think you just hang out with jerky people. seriously. i've never met a non playing person and have them not say 'what, you play guitar, teach me' (or) 'play insert lame song title here'. and as for your guitar playing friends... musicians have big egos, its just the way it is. we love to run our mouths and we always think we're right.
but really, don't get on yourself about the practing bit... you like it, and you don't want to make yourself play so that you get to the point where it becomes more of a chore and less of a fun experience. keep in mind, a lot of different people of different ages post here. some people can devote 10 hours a day because they don't work 40 hours a week, or pay lots of bills, or *gulp* raise kids and so on. or they are really old guys (a.k.a. dadfad ) just do what you want to do. you want to keep working on a certain song then work on it, you don't then stop.

[imme]

Shellshoe's go it. I started a coupla years ago, I'm 38 now, and I just bought my first acoustic (why I'm in this forum). I know I won't be as fast or play some of the music I love to listen to, that's ok, it doesn't make playing any less enjoyable

[spacecrumbs]

Playing good fingerstyle guitar is much harder than shredding on an electric IMO so don't put yourself down.

As for going back to college, go for it. Playing guitar is about expression not what others think of you, so don't worry about immature people like that.


Good luck with you're playing .

[BaasLian]

Some of us are lucky by having 10 hours a day to play.

I myself have to battle to get 30 minutes each day. But it does help. It's probably a matter of dedication.

I do share the same sentiment (Sp?) as you regarding acoustics. It sounds (if played properly) like the instument has a soul. Electrics are mainly there (for me anyway) to get rid of some stress & anger built up after a long day. But give me the sound of an acoustic guitar being fingerpicked properly any day.

And don't worry about the age thing. Look at Dadfad: He is 96 years old & is still going strong! So you still have a few years left in you...

Just enjoy it while you can & don't give a sh!t about anyone who tells you otherwise.

[spacecrumbs]

Quality not quantity.

[sunday_girl]

thanks everyone,
you did all make me feel better, and i agree acoustic has a soul,
I couldnt have put it better myself.
Rachel

[wannalearn01]

thanks everyone,
you did all make me feel better, and i agree acoustic has a soul,
I couldnt have put it better myself.
Rachel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree with that view, I don't think acoustics have more soul than electrics...that is all in the person anyways.

But I will agree, MOST people who play electric (who are my age) are not soulful people...they just like loud noises.

As for some of the stuff you are talking about:

School:
If I could go back to college(i went for business) i would have gone for music...but if I would ahve done that, I wouldn't be who I am now...and wouldn't have my "under dog" mentality of playing as much as I can to "catch up", even though I have no clue what I am trying to catch up to.

I think that it is very noble for anyone to go to college for a passion(and not for $$$), and when I look back and wish I would have started playing in HS, but I DIDN"T so I accept that there will always be someone ELSE that is better...but the true, true test of a passion...is if you are better than you were before, which everyday you are alive you are going to be Thats the appeal to me and guitar...I can barely remember not being able to play an open C...but I know that at one time I couldn't.

I have found that creating music is 10x easier FOR ME to do than learn other peoples songs...esp. when finger picking. Thats what I love about finger picking...add that with barre chords and you can have some very dynamic sounding songs...using all major chords. And what I have found is the best sounding ones write themselves, you just have to be there...thats why I think some peoples music is hard to learn...it is hard to think/play like anyone other than yourself...and I see so many people who are "cookie cutter" players, who couldn't write music to save their lives, but can play like crazy men/women.

I to this day cannot play anyone else music but my own...so when I learn a song, it is really a lof more like how I want to play it...not hyow "they" wrote it.

Shreading is hard...don't get me wrong, I can't do it...but TO ME, a slow finger pick is a hellava lot harder to pull off...b.c if you miss ONE note the whole measure can be thrown off...if a shreader misses a note, i doubt even they know it

T^roy

[nightnday]

left it too late for what? depends on your goals.

I took up guitar when I was around 25.

it's never too old to learn.

finger style hey? you want to learn classical guitar then. cool.

try playing a classical guitar with nylon strings and see how much faster and longer you can play.

[wannalearn01]

Here is a couple licks that I find fun that are relatively easy and are simple patterns:


e---
b----
g----------0-2-0----------------------0-2-0--------------0-2-0-
d-------0---------------------------0-------------------0--------
a-----------------------------------------------------------------
e---3------------------------2-------------------0----------------

b-----------------------------------------------------------------------3~~---------
g----------0h2~~~~~~~~~~~~~2h0~~~~~~~~~0h2---2--4-------4--2--0
d-------0---------------------------0------------------0-------------------------------
a-------------------------------------------------3------------0------------------
e---3------------------------2----------------------------------------------------


That is the jist of it....thumb(E/A), pointer (D), middle (G) and ring (...makes the transitions easier. Esp. That was motivated by classical gas and *45 by shinedown. the ~ symbolizes holding the note(and yourfinger down) until the next one is played...and the ending lick can be played impromtu...it is just hitting that d note on the b string that adds some real bite to it. Remember also that if it sounds good, it sounds good...who cares how simple or not simple it is...to a non-player...it is all the same

C-A-G barres

Progression to try:
(i)C-A-G
(ii)C-A-G-A
(iii)C-A-G-A/C(slide barre to C)

g-----------m----------
d-------p-------p------
a-----------------------
e---t--------------------

Those three chords can be played/picked however and will sound good. I usually do some picking (even random picking sounds ok b.c of the barres, so if you miss a string, then you hit another one in the same scale), and then toss in a quick "brush" stroke with the back of my nails, then immediately mute the strings. That give you a good rhythm, even by yourself...

g-----------m-------/-----------m------/---------m----------/----------m---/
d-------p-------p----/--------p------p--/-------p----p-------/-------p-----p/
a---------------------/-------------------/--------------------/---------------/
e---t-----------------/---t----------------/---t----------------/---t----------/ ... where / means a full strum with or without a mute

Like the one(s) above, if you do just picking on progression (i)...it makes a good intro...do a pick/strum on (ii)..letting the A ring out for a couple counts...will give it a "more to come" sound...do that same pick strum combo on (iii), until you do the slide up to the C barre and you can start strumming a chorus... then once you get that down, you can toss in any number of one or two note melodies(1-2 per chord/measure) by using your pinky to "snap pluck" the bottom E.

I have found that it is not my hands that prevent me from getting better and learning new techniques, it is your mind, and the in-set mentality that it takes YEARS AND YEARS to learn things...but like Einstein said "Time is relative", and to me, it says that people who put 30 minutes in a day for 10 years won't be as good as someone who played for 10 hours a day for 2-3 years...the one who started first might "feel more comfortable" playing, but comfy and good are also relative terms.

In 18 months I taught myself theory (basic), strumming, chords, barre chords(including the evil two fingered ones, on the ), scales ... and what I have found, is that it is easier to use the same chords and change what you are doing with them(struming hand), than it is to have 7 different chords that if you miss one it sounds like crap.

Hope this can help, or possibly inspire you, but either way...finger pickers are bad -ash!

T^roy

P.S. If you look at the 4 measures that I listed above, you can really see how timing works...where the thumb is, that is the rythmn...the middle and pointer is the melody and the /'s are the chord change...some finger picking is about patterns, always remember that...the same pattern on any progression can sound good...so if you find something on a chord you like, find how that pattern sounds on a different chord...a very good song like that is Simple Man. That song sounds harder than 3 of the most basic chords chords(C, G, Am(Am7))

Sorry to write a book, but I don't get one here like I used to...and work was slow today, so enjoy!

This post has been edited by wannalearn01: 20 May 2005 - 07:51 PM

[RICH.J]

I started guitar at 31. I've always been interested in music, couldn't get by without listening to it, going to concerts etc, and was always interested in how music works etc.

The only reason I took up guitar was because I had a 15 year relationship come to an end. I ended up back at "mommy's," and needed something to take my mind off all the stuff that comes with something like that happening to you.
In all honesty, learning to play is the best thing I've ever done. It sounds lame, but I don't know what I'd have done without my guitar.

If you're getting enjoyment out of learning, whatever age you start, I don't see what difference it makes. I think people can get a bit disheartened when they see 13yr old kids playing better than Jimmy Page ever could, but that's to miss the point completely. He wrote classic stuff using chords you probably know already.
If you enjoy something, even if you're not good at it, it doesn't matter. You don't give up certain sports, just because you're not as good as your favourite football player (soccer for you Yanks) or Basketball player or whatever.

Learning any instrument is never going to be easy, especially if you've never touched one before. You've got the physical aspect of stretching, being fast and accurate enough, learning enough so you can play what you hear in your head maybe, learning theory etc
Look at it this way, if you're having trouble and getting put off by it, what you going to do instead? Watch the TV? Go down the Pub? I know what I'd rather do...

Don't have unrealistic aspirations of maybe being the next Bob Dylan for song writing, or Zakk Wylde for playing, whoever... Just enjoy what you do. Keep cracking on with it, and you never know.

[dadfad]

Don't worry about starting late, Rachel. I know a number of people who started after thirty (one of them, an EXTREMELY dedicated beginner, was playing coffee-houses in six-months. He was playing festivals in just over a year from the day I taught him his first C-chord and is now a "pro" in his mid forties. But he was an exception. He actually gave up his family, social-life and career to practice obsessively 8-12 hours a day and I mention him only to show what CAN be accomplished in a short period.) I have a "semi-student" now in his mid-sixties. He'd been an old-time blues and traditional acoustic guitar music lover and music collector for fifty years. He retired recently and just decided he wanted to learn to play a little of this music he loves so much. And he's coming right along. In just a couple of months he's already doing a reasonable alternating thumb fingerstyle with simpler chord-forms and changes. I convinced him to do an open-mic tune last week which (thank God!) came off pretty well and he was "re-inspired" by it! (He did an old traditional tune "Stag-O-Lee" [or Staggerlee or Stack-O-Lee, etc, etc] which has been done by so many, from Mississippi John Hurt to Jimmy Darin! Funny, he has a "Stag-O-Lee" collection of almost three-hundred versions of that tune. And now HE can play it himself after all these years!)

You're never too old to learn, or come back. The joy of just playing for yourself or, if you like, an occassional open-mic or coffee-shop gig. And who knows... some day maybe even "the big time" (in acoustic guitar "the big time" isn't all that big usually! Maybe a nice club, or a festival.) One thing about acoustic guitar is you don't suffer so much from the "dinosaur syndrome" like you might in electric. In electric rock, etc it looks a bit "dinosaur-ish" to see an older person on a stage playing metal or shred, etc. In acoustic guitar being older actually makes you look more "authentic," more experienced with Life and maybe more likely to be able to transfer those life-lessons through your fingers into that box and wire contraption and out to anyone who might care to listen.

Never let anyone tell you acoustic guitar is easier than electric because it is not. Within the same approximate skill-levels, acoustic is more difficult. Truly good acoustic guitar is more difficult than truly good electric guitar. Poor acoustic guitar is more difficult than poor electric guitar. In the relative sense, acoustic is the more difficult. I've played both, and moved between favoring both several times over the years and the difficulty has always been in going back to acoustic and not the other way around. To go back to electric from acoustic is to find it much easier. To move from electric to acoustic is to have to hone up your skills and techniques and knowledge another notch or two. Now of course I mean this in a relative sense. Just because you're a good solid acoustic strummer doesn't mean you can then pick up an electric and play like Knopfler or Buchannon or something. But in the relative sense of experience and theoretical-knowledge and hand/finger-dexterity, acoustic is more difficult.

In many ways acoustic guitar is "mature guitar." I would bet that the average age of the regulars in this forum as compared to the site-average is probably ten years older or more (even excluding the old-coots like me or Okie or Stu!). A lot of acoustic players (as some posters have alluded to) turn to acoustic after playing electric and eventually find a kind of "been there-done that" relationship with most electric music. Don't get me wrong, I still love electric guitar. It feels great to pick one up and tear off a great blues riff, or rip through some power-chords, maybe kick some ass on Foxy Lady or Jumpin' Jack Flash... whatever. But it doesn't compare (to me anyway) with the feeling I get from taking a string of fingerstyle chord-frags through a position from one end of the neck to the other and actually winding up on exactly the right beat to go into the next position. Or even the simple beauty of slowly playing a nice rich chord where the notes tumble out like cool clear water in a brook.

I've rambled on enough! Don't worry about the musical-cretins and critics. Don't worry about age. Just play your guitar and enjoy it. You play it for you, not them, when you really think about it.


(And Liam, thats 95... NOT 96!)

[BaasLian]

How much are you charging your student, John?

[dadfad]

I figured since he was soooo much younger than me (a mere child compared to me, me being 95 and all...) that he might be a little short of funds. So I charge him nothing. (Actually, he's quite well off. I'd imagine his retirement income is greater than my present earned-income. Money is not a factor for either of us in this).

Typically when I have an actual student (as I said, the older guy is more of a semi-student. Not regular, just an hour or two every week or two). I normally charge $10 for a half hour. That's roughly half or a third of the "going rate." (And my half-hour is usually closer to ninety minutes or so. I only charge at all because I've found that charging something makes a student (especially younger ones) take the lesson more seriously. He's more likely to practice between them, show up on time, etc. That money seems to place another degree of value on the lesson. If I was truly "giving lesson" (which I might do when I retire) I would probably charge $20 or so per (extended) half hour. Having been to many workshops and things over the years both as instructing and learning, I would actually prefer to teach in small groups (maybe five or so per group) where the cost would be less per student for a longer period of time (an hour or two), yet more for me, and being a small group, easy to give very individualized attention and added group-interaction where others who advance a bit faster might even help those who don't (which actually is good for both).


My "ideal retirement" is one where all of my necessities (and my wife's) are covered by my retirement income. I would then travel fairly often playing low-key solo gigs (also low-paying) where the money is not much of a factor at all as long as it just covers my expenses. Arranged like a connect-the-dots on a road-map. Between them, in the different areas on "off-days," I'd like to schedule small workshops similar to what I mentioned above. In the past I have scheduled a number of similar workshops for touring-pro's I know, where they are in town to do an actual gig but don't mind spending a few hours the afternoon before doing a workshop, where they might pick up an extra hundred or two dollars (much less than their gig pays) being as they are already there anyway. They get a little extra spending-money, the attendees get the benefit of hands-on learning from a true pro, often whose CDs they have in their collections.

[sunday_girl]

thankyou dadfad(john),
I do live and love for my guitar , just sometimes get a little down, everyone seems to be so much more advanced in their playing than me.
I spend hours practicing simple progression of varing c chords d chords, etc and play as much as my fingers are able.
Steel strings are killing me at the moment. too much pressure on c chord patterns.
I can play norweigen wood quite slowly, and house of the rising sun fully picked and landslide and lots of other things, but they arnt good enough.
I just get annoyed with myself some times .

thanks for all the replies

i try and fingerpick everything to be honest.

Rachel

and troy I do the same thing as you play things my way with my own type of picking.

[okiejohn]

Rachel, I was fifty something or other when I started my attempt at acoustic guitar, I don't even remember when exactly I did start, seems like I've been at it for around three years and I'm 58 now.

I'm not in it for what others think, and probably will never amount to much on guitar, but that's OK. I love playing, it's a great way to pass the time.

I have a great audience...ol' Shaq, he's my big black Great Dane, can't shoot free throws, hence the name. He lays around the house and listens to my worst and never complains.

[The_buffalo]

You probably would have found everything easier if you had started when you were in your teens, but success is so dependant on desire... How bad do you want this? If it's important to you, you'll find a way, regardless of what it is you're trying to achieve.

[RICH.J]

thankyou dadfad(john),
I do live and love for my guitar , just sometimes get a little down, everyone seems to be so much more advanced in their playing than me.
I spend hours practicing simple progression of varing c chords d chords, etc and play as much as my fingers are able.
Steel strings are killing me at the moment. too much pressure on c chord patterns.
I can play  norweigen wood quite slowly, and house of the rising sun fully picked and landslide and lots of other things, but they arnt good enough.
I just get annoyed with myself some times .

thanks for all the replies

i try and fingerpick everything to be honest.

Rachel

and troy I do the same thing as you play things my way with my own type of picking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't recommend the Woody Mann Art of Acoustic Blues Guitar series of DVD's enough. I'd say they are some of the best instructional videos around.
Maybe you should pick one or two of those up. He explains things really well on those, and plays good Blues stuff that sounds really good. You learn more than just the songs on them, he's a great teacher. That's if you like blues that is.
Give them a try, he shows you lots of things on there that'll help you in many ways.

Don't stop playing.

[BaasLian]

I figured since he was soooo much younger than me (a mere child compared to me, me being 95 and all...) that he might be a little short of funds. So I charge him nothing. (Actually, he's quite well off. I'd imagine his retirement income is greater than my present earned-income. Money is not a factor for either of us in this).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mmm, that's dirt cheap!

I figured you would be given something like an old-age home package, or he would transfer his pension fund into yours!

But it's probably great to be at a stage in your life where money is not really of any importance.

Rachel: Im only just (after almost 2 years) getting down the songs that I wanted to play initially. It just takes time, practice & a lot of patience.

ust hang in there

[halfmoonbay]

I started playing when I was fairly young, about fourteen I think,* had lessons for a few years, but I think it's fair to say that I've become more 'disciplined' about learning guitar as I've got older. The busier I get with things in the 'real world', the more I'll try and make time to play. If I'd started my day at seven, eight in the morning and had been busy all day then I'd make the effort to get a solid hour's playing in at eleven, twelve, before I go to bed. Even if you can't manage that, regular practice beats the occasional ten-hour guitar playing session every time. Just a case of plodding along, sometimes it feels like you're going nowhere and you get frustrated, but if you persist it'll 'click' and you'll get it and then you'll have it........... despite learning umpteen exotic and interesting chords over the years, I (and I bet most other folk) still end up using those open minor and major chords that I started out with in a pretty large proportion of the things I play, these are things that come easy and I can do without thinking about it, but there was a time when I was having difficulty getting my fingers to go in the right place and wouldn't have been able to do them. It's all about practice I suppose - this applies to anyone, thirteen or thirty. Starting learning 'late' doesn't necessarily exclude you from being a decent player, to add another example to the ones cited above you've got someone like Rick (Frankyz) who took up guitar at a relatively late stage and now makes his living as a guitar teacher and has a very large roster of pupils.




* And I'm still rubbish now, the difference being that I now know more ways in which to butcher a classic song.