[tenn_jim]

If you get a chance to listen to Charlie Patton's Boll Weevil Blues, is he playing this lap-style or upright? I have an ongoing argument with several of my friends who believe he is playing lap-style because he couldn't be hitting some notes upright with his slide. Others say he couldn't get the tone lap-style.

Can anyone figure this out?

DADFAD...help!

[dadfad]

My opinion, he played it upright. (Although I've heard a couple of guys say they thought he used lap-style too and so it's a topic of debate I guess.) To me, there are no tones or combinations in it that suggest it need be played lap-style. Although it's played high (Bb or B I think) Patton often tuned high on his tunes (even in standard non-slide tunes) so going up to Bb or B is no major thing (from open-G style/Spanish that he likely did the tune in). That's just two steps (or tuned one step up and then capoed on the 2nd-fret. Robert Johnson did similar hi-opens also using a capo and he saw Patton play frequently.) Two steps up might sound killer to us nowadays but back then guitars had short scale-lengths and the strings were all very sturdy (they didn't have lights, mediums, etc. Just "strings" and they were the equivelent of a Heavy. Just the opposite, there are non-slid rhythms that suggest it would be easier played upright. He recorded it around 1930ish under the name of The Masked Marvel (titled "Mississippi Bolweevil Blues"). He used that name several times for recording. There was a fairly similar old version of the same tune (several really, it was pretty much traditional) recorded by a more obscure guy named Guitar Welch (who also played it upright).

It's a pretty straight forward slide tune. Of course I didn't see him play it or know anyone who ever saw him play besides Dave Edwards (and he never saw him play that tune that he remembered), but I can't think of anything in it that would suggest it needed to be played lap-style. And I've seen re-prints of Charlie Patton 78 jackets where he wore a slide on his finger.

[tenn_jim]

My opinion, he played it upright. (Although I've heard a couple of guys say they thought he used lap-style too and so it's a topic of debate I guess.) To me, there are no tones or combinations in it that suggest it need be played lap-style. Although it's played high (Bb or B I think) Patton often tuned high on his tunes (even in standard non-slide tunes) so going up to Bb or B is no major thing (from open-G style/Spanish that he likely did the tune in). That's just two steps (or tuned one step up and then capoed on the 2nd-fret. Robert Johnson did similar hi-opens also using a capo and he saw Patton play frequently.) Two steps up might sound killer to us nowadays but back then guitars had short scale-lengths and the strings were all very sturdy (they didn't have lights, mediums, etc. Just "strings" and they were the equivelent of a Heavy. Just the opposite, there are non-slid rhythms that suggest it would be easier played upright. He recorded it around 1930ish under the name of The Masked Marvel (titled "Mississippi Bolweevil Blues"). He used that name several times for recording. There was a fairly similar old version of the same tune (several really, it was pretty much traditional) recorded by a more obscure guy named Guitar Welch (who also played it upright).

It's a pretty straight forward slide tune. Of course I didn't see him play it or know anyone who ever saw him play besides Dave Edwards (and he never saw him play that tune that he remembered), but I can't think of anything in it that would suggest it needed to be played lap-style. And I've seen re-prints of Charlie Patton 78 jackets where he wore a slide on his finger.

Thanks John. I agree with you on the non-slide rhythms. I believe the bass runs he plays are open. I couldn't figure out how he could play those lap-style slide but my friends have argued that even with the high tuning you refer to, it would have to be played as high as the 20th fret even capo'd up. That would have been impossible (he argues) with guitars that would have been available to Charlie back then.

The debate goes on I guess. But I am with you, I still believe he plays most of his songs upright.

Again, thanks for taking the time to discuss.

[guitarguy33]

My opinion, he played it upright. (Although I've heard a couple of guys say they thought he used lap-style too and so it's a topic of debate I guess.) To me, there are no tones or combinations in it that suggest it need be played lap-style. Although it's played high (Bb or B I think) Patton often tuned high on his tunes (even in standard non-slide tunes) so going up to Bb or B is no major thing (from open-G style/Spanish that he likely did the tune in). That's just two steps (or tuned one step up and then capoed on the 2nd-fret. Robert Johnson did similar hi-opens also using a capo and he saw Patton play frequently.) Two steps up might sound killer to us nowadays but back then guitars had short scale-lengths and the strings were all very sturdy (they didn't have lights, mediums, etc. Just "strings" and they were the equivelent of a Heavy. Just the opposite, there are non-slid rhythms that suggest it would be easier played upright. He recorded it around 1930ish under the name of The Masked Marvel (titled "Mississippi Bolweevil Blues"). He used that name several times for recording. There was a fairly similar old version of the same tune (several really, it was pretty much traditional) recorded by a more obscure guy named Guitar Welch (who also played it upright).

It's a pretty straight forward slide tune. Of course I didn't see him play it or know anyone who ever saw him play besides Dave Edwards (and he never saw him play that tune that he remembered), but I can't think of anything in it that would suggest it needed to be played lap-style. And I've seen re-prints of Charlie Patton 78 jackets where he wore a slide on his finger.

I believe patton tuned up a half step all the time. It sounds like he played it upright but there isn't really too much of a definitive way to tell.

[dadfad]

No, we'll never know for sure of course. But also take into consideration the possibility that the recording itself might have been sped up slightly to stay within the time constraints of the 78 rpm recording format. Jim and I were just discussing that on another board when Jim brought up a couple of excellent articles on the subject, specifically in reference to Robert Johnson recordings that are possibly sped up, which I had assumed was probably so for many years. I first thought of the possibility of sped up old recordings when many years ago I was working on an old Blind Blake tune trying to learn it from a 78. To me there was no question the tune was played "as if" in G (later confirmed to me by bluesman John Jackson who'd learned to play it directly from Blind Blake's leader-boy), but on the recording the tune was in the key of A or A#. This would have meant a capo on the 5th or 6th fret (then played as if in G). Also the scratch-rhythms (rhythmic foot motions) on the recording were so high-toned they sounded more like they'd have had to have been made by a second person using blocks, which I doubted. So I figured Blake probably capoed around the second fret (with a possibility of being slightly high-tuned, given the thick strings of that era), the rest of the upwards key-shift coming from the recording being sped up. In any case, like you said, we'll never know for sure but there's no question that Patton tune can be played in the same way with a guitar in the "normal" position.

[guitarguy33]

which robert johnson tunes are sped up?

[dadfad]

Possibly quite a few. Listen to these comparisons for example:

As On Recording Key of B

Possible True Speed Key of A

[Crawdaddy]

Thats an interesting comparison and something that had never occurred to me before. After listening to both clips, the second one in the key of A, to my ear at least sounds a whole lot more "acoustic" and natural.

[dadfad]

That's what I thought too. A sort of loose rule of thumb (to me) is that first of all (when applicable) consider his tunes may be slowed to the lower common standard-pitch (like an A#-recorded-tune down to A, etc) if that tune in standard-pitch can then be played using the chord-forms appropriate for playing it in that key. And then (especially on his slide tunes) consider that it might be slowed to either open-D or open-G, or at most capoed on the second-fret (to open-E or open-A), but never for example capoed on the fourth-fret (like to open-B ). It's been awhile since I specifically listened to all of the Robert-tunes and keyed them, etc and so when I do them now I just do them in the appropriate way for that key and/or tuning.


Also keep in mind that back then Robert, as a solo performer, had no reason whatsoever to make sure his guitar was tuned to perfect A440-pitch (tuning it say to a piano, as simple personal electronic tuners weren't around yet.) He could have tuned to a harmonica or something too of course, but like I said he had no reason to do so. As long as his guitar was in tune in a relative sense and his strings felt "right" to him, that's all that mattered. When these tunes were remastered years later, Columbia Records brought them up to the closest standard pitch.

[guitarguy33]

Possibly quite a few. Listen to these comparisons for example:

As On Recording Key of B

Possible True Speed Key of A

Interesting. Thanks for bringing that to my attention dadfad
Those John Jackson tunes are masterpieces by the way!

[dadfad]

No problem. I guess in the end, as guitarists, it isn't of major importance really. We take a tune apart and learn the phrases, the moves, the signature-licks and all the things that identify it as a Robert-tune and then put it back to together again using all of that along with a bit of ourselves, and then it really doesn't matter if we're up-tuned or even capoed or not anymore. Probably it's more important as a listener because then you feel the music a little differently. A... nervous... voice becomes a stronger voice. Words that were... cramped... become clearly enunciated and deliberate. Hard to explain really.

I'm glad you like those tunes by John Jackson. Yes, he was a tremendous guitarist. I have many hours of his recordings, whether released or recorded live at performances or whatever. Even several boxes full of cassettes of him playing a tune patiently over and over as he was trying to help me get it together. He was a great person as well as a fantastic guitarist. And I know he absolutely wouldn't care a bit that those were put up for d/l's, and just be happy that others were enjoying his music. Anyway, glad you like them.

[guitarguy33]

I totally agree with you on its more important to the listener. As a guitarist all it just moves the patterns he plays in down a little slowed. As a listner it changes everything, I think it hits you a little harder.

And your a lucky man to have studied under Mr. Jackson.

[dadfad]

Yes, in addition to being a fantastic guitarist, John was probably the finest human being I've ever had the honor to call my friend. This earth is a lesser place with him gone.

[guitarguy33]

Yes, in addition to being a fantastic guitarist, John was probably the finest human being I've ever had the honor to call my friend. This earth is a lesser place with him gone.

so sad.

[dadfad]

It was, in that very few expected it. I talked with John on Christmas Evening ('01). He called and acted like everything was just fine, although he knew he was dying soon (he died on January 21). He wished me and my family a merry Christmas, and the last thing he said to me was "Now you keep working on that back-thumb, ya hear?" Several years earlier John had asked me if I'd be one of his pall-bearers when the time finally came. He had many friends who loved him and his funeral was attended by quite a varied group of people in addidtion to the family and musicians you might expect, from Fred (Mister) Rogers to President Jimmy Carter. He'd made a lot of friends and was loved by many.

[tenn_jim]

No, we'll never know for sure of course. But also take into consideration the possibility that the recording itself might have been sped up slightly to stay within the time constraints of the 78 rpm recording format. Jim and I were just discussing that on another board when Jim brought up a couple of excellent articles on the subject, specifically in reference to Robert Johnson recordings that are possibly sped up, which I had assumed was probably so for many years. I first thought of the possibility of sped up old recordings when many years ago I was working on an old Blind Blake tune trying to learn it from a 78. To me there was no question the tune was played "as if" in G (later confirmed to me by bluesman John Jackson who'd learned to play it directly from Blind Blake's leader-boy), but on the recording the tune was in the key of A or A#. This would have meant a capo on the 5th or 6th fret (then played as if in G). Also the scratch-rhythms (rhythmic foot motions) on the recording were so high-toned they sounded more like they'd have had to have been made by a second person using blocks, which I doubted. So I figured Blake probably capoed around the second fret (with a possibility of being slightly high-tuned, given the thick strings of that era), the rest of the upwards key-shift coming from the recording being sped up. In any case, like you said, we'll never know for sure but there's no question that Patton tune can be played in the same way with a guitar in the "normal" position.

Interesting enough, the mystery continues.

Apparently there are other artists for whom questions are now being raised about the recording speeds used for their music. In a recent study of Lead Belly's music, someone found that most of the material that was produced and engineered by Alan Lomax is pitched too high when reproduced at 78 rpm. This poses a problem because so much of the Library of Congress material was engineered by Alan Lomax. Curiuously, the recordings engineered by his father, John Lomax, were most likely pitched correctly.

It makes one wonder if Alan chose to record the session at a slower speed so that he would have more recording time per disc or was it meant to be a musical/artistic choice.

It is also reported that early recordings of Willie McTell were recorded at a slow speed for artistic/music reasons. Would the original version of Statesboro Blues sound as sweet to the ear at its true pitch?

Also, over the years, various copies of original 78s have become pitched incorrectly. For instance a Document recording of Lead Belly's "Gallis Pole" originally engineered by Musiccraft, was originally played by Lead Belly in the key of B. But the Document copy of this had it pitched in C.

Just wonder if there is anyone who can get to the bottom of this question?

[guitarguy33]

It was, in that very few expected it. I talked with John on Christmas Evening ('01). He called and acted like everything was just fine, although he knew he was dying soon (he died on January 21). He wished me and my family a merry Christmas, and the last thing he said to me was "Now you keep working on that back-thumb, ya hear?" Several years earlier John had asked me if I'd be one of his pall-bearers when the time finally came. He had many friends who loved him and his funeral was attended by quite a varied group of people in addidtion to the family and musicians you might expect, from Fred (Mister) Rogers to President Jimmy Carter. He'd made a lot of friends and was loved by many.

what'd he die of if you don't mind me asking.


thats quite an impressive funeral

[dadfad]

The official cause of death was kidney failure, which was actually as a result of liver cancer. As told to me by John's long-time manager, friend and... I guess a good term is guardian-angel (she pretty much managed his entire life in his last few years, from booking gigs and handling plane tickets to buying his socks) Trish Beyerly, who loved John like a father. He had begun to complain of feeling bad in late November. At her urging, he finally went to the doctor in early December and had tests which confirmed very advanced fast-moving terminal liver cancer. He died just over a month later, playing right until just a week or so before the end. Trish called me and said John was dying, which shocked me (he'd called me just a couple of weeks earlier and didn't even mention it), and I might want to visit him one last time. I started making arrangements immediately to fly out the next morning. She called me a few hours later and said he had just died.

John was not much of the hard-living cliche' bluesman. He was a very gentle man and lived a fairly quiet life most of his years, always working hard at farming and "day-jobs" to support his family. He'd even quit playing out for ten or fifteen years because he didn't like the atmosphere of drinking and violence in the juke-joints and barrel-houses, and then played only at home and at church for years. His "rediscovery" opened new less violent venues to him like blues festivals and upper-scale clubs, college concerts, etc, including Lincoln Center, Carnegie Hall and several times at The White House. (John was declared a "National Heritage Living Treasure" in the early '80s, which is similar to say what the Grand Canyon or Devil's Tower is except that you're a human being.). Even though he died from liver cancer, John wasn't much of a drinker at all. He'd have an occasional nip of moonshine, but just a nip, and he'd always say "This is for medicinal purposes." with such a straight face that over the years I actually came to believe him! His one "vice" was smoking non-filtered Chesterfields (and then Pall Malls) for fifty or so years (which he'd quit smoking about ten or so years before his death).

John had many friends who loved him. Young and old, musicians and non-musicians, rich and poor, famous and never-heard-of. I feel fortunate to have been one of them.

[guitarguy33]

did you know that he had cancer before you heard he was about to die?

[dadfad]

No, and neither did he until just a month or so earlier. From his first doctor visit to his death was just six or seven weeks. According to Trish, he told almost no one. It was extremely fast moving. Trish and one of his former students whom he'd taught to play old-time banjo many years before as a child were in the room with him at the end, softly playing an old Appalachian mountain hymn on his banjo in the corner when John closed his eyes for the last time.