[acoustic_soul]

I have a EG531SC Black Cutaway Acoustic/Electric Takamine. It has a great sound, nice, full and rich and flavorful. My problem is, the action for it is way too high. I chose this takamine over any other not only because of the sound, but because it was cutaway, giving me the room to play riffs and some lead up in the higher frets. Barring the E is even somewhat difficult, since I have to press down hard enough to not get a buzz.

So i was wondering, how would i fix this problem? and is it easy to do on my own? or should I have someone else do it for me?

[ibanezdude70]

Well, this sounds dumb but are the strings on right? A friend of mine, who's been playing for years, did that once. His action was like 1 inch so he looked around, and he had somehow put the strings on wrong.

[acoustic_soul]

Yeah, the strings are on right. I was reading reviews on my guitar, and some people say that the action is a bit high. The thing is, this guitar's neck is a little bit wider than my old Yamaha guitar, so it was a little bit tougher to get used to when i first got this last year. So the neck is al ittle wide, and the action is high, so i feel uncomfortable playing this guitar, even though it has a nice sound. I'd just like to lower the action, so I can play some riffs, n be able to barre a chord up high without having to press my strings down like a telephone button.

[dadfad]

Was it that high when you got it? Have you changed string guage?

[goldrush]

Some guitars have notoriously high action (Yamaha for one). I'm not familiar with Takamine, but it could be the action is naturally high on them. You can have some adjustments made to the guitar (by a good luthier) to lower the action, such as having the neck adjusted, lowering the saddle and/or nut. Also, are you using medium gauge strings? Sometimes switching to light gauge can make the guitar feel easier to play. I wouldn't try adjusting the guitar yourself however--take it to a reputable luthier.

[acoustic_soul]

Yeah, it was high when i got it.. i've looked around online,and I guess it's not just me who has the same problem. It just feels like i have to press down too much when I'm playing anywhere above the 6th-7th fret.

Right now, I've got a set of Martin strings on her, i believe they're medium gauge. I havent tried light strings on her yet, but, that's a possibility. I think the gauge was the same when I first got it.

I'm taking a look at her right now, and as i go down the fretboard...the strings get higher n higher off of the fretboard. I know it's suppose to rise a little, but, to me, i think it rises a little too much near the 12th fret.

I was thinking of filing down my nut, but, I'm too afraid i'd screw it up even more.

This post has been edited by acoustic_soul: 07 June 2004 - 10:10 AM

[dadfad]

Your nut should have little (more like nothing) to do with it. Assuming your neck is in good condition, the action is controlled by two things...the truss-rod and the saddle (insert in the bridge). A slight tightening of the rod might help, you can remove material from your saddle (the bottom is where you'd want to do it). I'm going to copy some old posts with information, but also a warning that you should proceed carefully before you do any of these things. If your guitar now has "mediums" on it, you might want to switch to "light" or even "extra-light" guage. Most modern guitars were made and set up for lights. I'd try that first, and then do (or have done) the following.......

Truss-rod Posts


I'm gonna post a bunch of old posts I made about truss-rod adjustment. Read them all and you should have a pretty good handle on adjustments. And yes, you can screw something up, but only if you snap the nut or the rod itself off (covered below too). Otherwise as long as you keep track of where you started from, you can always get it back to where it was. It's all in that stuff below. Keep in mind, a rod adjustment is just for minor changes in action, like from string guage changes or if your neck gets a little out of whack, etc. Not major ones. Anyway, read the stuff below and if it isn't covered in there or ya have another question or whatever let me know...........

------------------------------------------------------

The nut can also be under a cover-plate near the tuners. Turning the nut (usually a 5/16") clockwise will tighten it, usually causing the action to lower. Do this cautiously (the rod CAN snap from over-tightening or if the nut is frozen). Try maybe a 1/4 turn (clockwise) at a time and allow the guitar a while to re-shape before doing another 1/4 turn. Also, count how many turns you have made. That way, if necessary, you can always bring it back to your starting point.

---------

Make sure the nut or rod isn't totally loose first, like only finger tight or even looser. If it is, first snug it up. Then give it about a quarter turn (if it seems to be froze, try a little WD-40 on it first, if it's still frozen let someone else at a shop do it). See if the half-turn makes any difference at all after waiting maybe an hour or so. If so, try another 1/4 turn, then wait. Then try it and see if it needs another 1/4 turn, etc. Until it gets where it's more playable. (If it doesn't make any difference at all, you might have a loose neck joint). Go slowly, and remember it'll keep changing for a while after it's tightened. If it gets too close the frets will start to buzz and you then may have to then back it off a smidgen by loosening it slightly (the loosening change takes place pretty quickly, unlike tightening it.).

-----------

Some have the adjustment nut at the body-end of the fret-board, most with an Allen-type end, but not all use an Allen-type head or adjust near the body/soundhole. Many, like Gibson, Guild, etc, use a hex-nut (usually 5/16") under the truss-rod cover above the string-nut on the headstock. Again, clockwise (tightening) usually lowers the action, counter-clockwise (loosening) lowers it. Never go more that 1/4 to 1/8 turn at a time, and wait for awile (sometimes it takes an hour or more, especially when lowering) to give the neck time to re-configure. Always count your turns so if necessary you can go back to where you were. Be careful, if it's really hard to turn use a loosener like WD-40. You CAN snap a truss-rod, and believe me, the repair then is extremely difficult even for an experienced luthier.

--------------

You turn the nut clockwise to lower the action (as you look at the top of the nut). Just go about a 1/4 turn at a time, then wait for fifteen minutes to a half hour because it takes a while sometimes for the neck to re-shape to the new tension. Don't force it. If it's REALLY hard to turn, it might be frozen. WD-40 can usually loosen it if necessary. They CAN snap off (in which case you either have a pretty tough repair job or an excellent slide-guitar  ). Keep track of the turns and quarter turns in case you need to go back to the start. When it gets where you want it, of course stop there. If it starts to buzz, back off a quarter turn. Keep in mind it might still be re-shaping after quite a while (even overnight sometimes) so you never want to start cutting or carving something for at least that long. Hopefully the rod-adjustment is enough.

If you need more still but tightening the rod more causes buzzing, then (asssuming you don't have a warped neck or something) you lower the saddle. Its best to remove material from the bottom because the top is already carved and shaped for contact, intonation, etc. To do it, remove the saddle. Use a large file. Put the file on a table or bench. Use a pencil to make a straight line on the side of your saddle near the bottom. If one side needs to be lowered more than the other, angle the line slightly. Now hold the saddle in your fingers, keeping in straight-perpendicular and start rubbing it against the file. Keep it perpendicular in the up/down direction so the bottom is flat. Use the line on the side as a guage to show how much has come off. Always remove just a little at a time, maybe 1/32 or less, then put it back in the bridge and check it. If you just loosen the strings you can usually just slide it out or lift it out. To check it after you've put it back in, you only need to retighten the 1 and 6 to give you a good idea where you are at. If necessary, repeat this to remove more. Remember, it's a lot easier to remove more again than it is to try to put more material on it once it's been removed!

If you approach all of this thoughtfully and don't try to rush, it really isn't a difficult thing to do. Should you remove too much, it CAN be repaired with saddle-shims (the use of which is another topic) (I hope!  ) usually, but it's easier to not remove too much to start. So just take your time as you go. Hopefully a quarter turn or so on the truss-rod nut is all you need. Good luck.

------------------------------

A little WD-40 can usually free a frozen rod-nut. If it's frozen you CAN break it still loosening it as well as tightening it (but very unlikely). Truss-rods are always pretty hard to turn. They usually squeak when turned even. If a little WD-40 on the rod-nut doesn't help (after it's had a chance to penetrate in there), try it like this. Turn your guitar upside down (the headstock on the floor, body-side up. Now try some more WD down the rod. It should flow down the rod to where it threads into the other end (near the nut) (This is one of the reasons I don't like sound-hole adjusting end truss-rods. On head-stock adjusting rods, the nut is right there where you can see it). Anyway, try that. Let it set upside down a while and hopefully some of the WD will flow down to where it threads in. Then see if it it loosens any.

---------------------------------------

It's either an Allen wrench type (little internal hex slot) or a regular hex nut. Many electrics, especially the kind with the adjuster at the guitar-body end of the fret board, use the allen-wrench type. The hex-nut type, including all Gibsons, usually have a cover-plate on the head-stock. Both tools can be found at a hardware store. The allen-wrench type tool is often called a hex-key. For the hex-nut type, a tool that looks like a screw driver with a socket on the end is used. Gibson and many others use a 5/16" standard nut. Sometimes the socket end of the tool is a tiny bit larger than the hole in the neck. You can either grind down the tool's outside-diameter a bit or expand the hole in the wood. There is a third type truss-rod nut but it's not very common...the spoke-nut. It either has an X-shaped slot in the end or a series of holes around the outside. Most can be turned with an ordinary phillips-head screw-driver or a small pin, even a nail, fitting inside the little holes around the outside. Tools for any of these can be found at Stewart-McDonald's or elsewhere on-line, but like I said, hardware stores generally have them. Just make sure you get the right size. And be aware there are both standard and metric sizes.

----------------------------

When you tighten a truss-rod, turn it only about a quarter-turn at a time, then wait a while to see what difference its made. Sometimes it takes a couple of hours for the neck to re-form. Also, keep track of how many turns and partial turns you've made in case you want to go back to where you started. Never tighten if it gets really hard to turn. You can snap it (I have before) and it's a lot of work fixing it (remove fret-board, replace rod, re-frett usually, etc). Most of the time, you turn clockwise to tighten, whether the adjustment is from a nut at the headstock or at the soundhole (clockwise as you face the adjusting end of the rod).

Lowering a saddle is easiest if done on the bottom of the old saddle. Make a pencil line how much you'd like to take off and then use a large flat file, keeping the saddle nice and straight as you go. Put the file on a flat surface (table, etc) and just run the saddle back and forth, long-way, until it's where you want it. It's a good idea to check it ocassionally with at least the 1 and 6 string (checking for frett-buzz, etc open and up the neck) to make sure you aren't going too low.

The search on this new forum format is virtually useless. I doubt if you'll find anything, but you can try. I (and others) have posted a great deal on this. It's a shame it's now virtually lost.

---------------------------------

When the rod is stuck, first of all don't force it. MAJOR pain-in-the-ass repair (remove fingerboard, usually a re-fret job). I've done it before. You might try a little WD-40 on it. Let it set a while (like a couple of days), then try LOOSENING the nut first. (Usually counter-clockwise if the cover is on the head-stock. If it works loose, when you go to tighten it, just go maybe 1/4 turn at a time. Let it sit between turns. Sometimes, especially older guitars, it takes a while before the neck starts to re-shape itself. Count how many turns so you can go back to start if necessary. If it won't work loose, pay to have it done. It's like buying insurance for if the rod snaps. Good luck (if all else fails, use it for slide!).

-------------------------------------

First of all, you might not necessarily have to adjust the rod just because you're changing strings. Okay, the nut is probably stripped (rounded on the corners) pretty bad. This MIGHT work. First, use a penetrating oil on it to make it as easy as possible to turn. Now, most Gibsons take a 5/16 nut (they ALL used too, but make sure). A 5/16 socket will probably now just spin, not grip well and just make it worse. You can buy sockets in small increments. Try to find a 19/64 socket (.015 of an inch smaller than the 5/16). Sometimes you have to actually grind down the OUTSIDE of a socket to get it to fit into the nut groove. Anyway, take that socket and sort of rotate it on the nut until it feels like it ALMOST is ready to fit and go over the nut (You know, like the worn nut-corners in line with the socket corners, etc). Now, take a small hammer and GENTLY try to tap that socket down over the nut. A Gibson truss-rod nut is usually made of brass which is pretty soft. If you can get it down snuggly, you MIGHT be able to loosen it up (that's counter-clockwise, don't try to tighten it). If you can get it off, buy a new nut, either at the shop or http://www.stewmac.com or something (not a hardware store). It needs to be replaced. Possibly someone in the past tried to adjust it with the wrong size socket, like maybe an 11/32 or an 8 or 9 mm metric or something. Be careful. Truss-rods CAN snap (believe me, I know! MAJOR MAJOR pain in the azz. Fret-board removal, etc). So anyway, maybe some of this advice will help. And maybe you won't have to even adjust it at all! Good luck!

---------------------------

Tightening the rod, usually clockwise, as G-weed said generally causes the middle frets to raise. (NOTE: a few guitars work the other way) For example if you loosened your rod all the way, you'd get a MAJOR bow in the neck from string tension. It's not the way to correct action generally. Generally you raise or lower the saddle, but sometimes rod-adjustment is required as you do this (or if you have a buzz in the middle frets as you lower from the saddle). Truss-rod adjustment isn't something to casually mess with. Always approach it last, especially if you aren't familiar with guitar set-up (there's been extensive posting on this if you use the "Search" feature below). Like G-weed said, if its tight or you aren't sure how to proceed, let a tech-guy do it (and ask him if you can watch and explain as he does it so you'll learn for next time). I've broken truss-rods before. It's a MAJOR repair job (I had to remove the fingerboard, replace the rod and board). A truss rod works like this. Think of a bow and arrow. The bow is your neck, the string is your guitar strings. The truss-rod would be like a metal bar you put in front of the bow and every time you tighten it, it pulls the bow a little straighter. Anyway, good luck. And be careful.

----------------------------------

by Fingertappinfool
Hello Dadfad, I have a few questions concerning truss rod adjustment on my Les Paul Studio. I've tried using the search feature already, but didn't get what i was looking for. I suppose my questions are a bit more specific than your average "what is a truss rod and which way do i turn it." So here goes... my problem is that my strings buzz beyond what is normal. I have the string height set at 1/16" (from the top of the fretwire to the bottom of the string) on both E strings at the 12th fret. This is more or less where i would like to keep the string height. It buzzes all over in various spots, but especially in the upper registry (fret 12 and up). I use fairly heavy strings (Ernie Ball 11-52). I had my frets dressed roughly 6 motnhs ago, so they're all pretty even (as far as i can tell anyways) and there aren't any noticible humps or warps in the neck. I "measure" relief by pressing the E strings down at the 1st and 13th frets. On the big E side there is some relief (but it's too small for me to measure), and on the little E side there is no relief. I know you turn the t-rod counterclockwise to put in more relief, and clockwise to pull the neck away from the strings. I read in a repair book that whenever adjusting a rod, you should loosen it all the way, and then tighten it until its snug (i suppose this is to stop people from overtightening the rod). Is this OK? Then it goes on about straightedge's blah blah blah and i'm already lost. So now you know the symptoms to the best of my knowledge, and i've told you what i already know. So now we get to my real questions... How much relief is acceptable (i've read 0.012" max, but the he-ll do you measure that? How do you measure relief (is there an easy way?), what size socket do i need to turn the rod, and where do i obtain such as item? I remember watching a guitar tech turn a rod with an "L wrench" with a socket on the end. Are they special for guitars, or can i buy such a wrench in a hardware supply store? And as i already mentoined, I have relief on one side of my neck and none on the other... will adjusting the rod take care of this problem? I know i typed a lot here, but i didn't want this to be the typical extremely vague "help me dadfad" topic. Any help that you or anybody esle can give me would be greatly appreciated.
FTfool

Your socket is probably 1/4, 9/32 or 5/16. I bought a set of the small sockets on the screw driver type handle and put a hole in the handle so I could put a small rod through it to help turn with more force when necessary. I don't believe in loosening a rod all the way and starting over. You're already in a given place and know where you want to go from there and I can't imagine starting totally from nowhere unless its a re-neck job or a major restoration project. The 1/16 at the 12th fret is a bit close, not always atainable (you may have to settle for about 3/32. I think you need to probably approach this from two directions. Rod and action adjustment both. First try to loosen the rod approx 1/8 to 1/4 turn counter-clockwise (I always keep track of how many turns or partial turns I've made so I can always return to my start-point if necessary). Allow a bit of time (at least 15 min-1/2 hour) for the neck to re-form. When the buzzing is corrected. If the action has increased, lower it a bit to where you want it. If it buzzes again, repeat the above steps (it may take a couple of times). When you finally get it where you want it (and remember, 1/16 is VERY close), you may have to re-intonate. I hope this takes care of it for you. And be sure you have a good, snug socket so you don't round the nut corners. If you can't find a socket that fits in the cavity, you can widen the cavity (it doesn't show) or grind a little bit off the outside of the socket's head (which I've done so they fit inside any cavity, which can vary). Shouldn't take much adjustment, and be sure to let it sit awhile. Sometimes it will even increase a tiny bit over-night.

----------------------------------------


It's a bar that runs down your neck under the fret board. It helps keep the neck from bowing under string tension. Tightening it sort of pushes the mid to upper frets toward the strings. It's usually tightened from underneath a plastic cover on the headstock just over the nut. Sometimes from in the sound-hole. This isn't the way you adjust action actually. You just use that to make sure your neck doesn't have too much "bow" in it. Sometimes this is all that's required, it's the bow that makes the strings too high, not really the saddle which if it's too high needs material taken off the bottom. A truss-rod or rod-nut should never be turned more than a quarter-turn at a time (clock-wise to tighten it). You have to be very sure that you have the proper socket (or sometimes an Allen wrench) to turn it. Sometimes it takes a few minutes, or hours, for the neck to re-shape itself to a tightening, so it's not something you rush to do or just go and tighten the heck out of it. It can break, or actually smash through the fingerboard. If it's very hard to turn, it should be left to someone who is used to doing it. You should always know how many quarter-turns you've made (if it needs more than one) so you can go back if necessary. Like I said, a truss-rod adjustment can only do so much. You can't just keep tightening it until the strings are where you want them if it takes more than a couple of quarter turns. It might need a combination of truss-rod adjustment and taking the saddle down a little. If in doubt, let a professional do it. And if you have it done, ask to watch so you know what to do next time.
(also, there are lots of other "action" and "truss rod" posts in the past if you click the SEARCH at the bottom of the page)

----------------------------------------------

Saddle Lowering post....


Lowering the saddle is easiest done from the bottom usually. Remove it (just loosening the strings is usually enough) and take it out. With a straight-edge draw a pencil line across the bottom as sort of a reference to see how much you've taken off. Take a large file and lay it on a table or bench and run the saddle smoothly and evenly across it longways, making sure to keep the saddle both perpendicular and horizontal (unless you WISH to remove more off one side than the other). Check it by putting it back in place and tightening a couple of strings (usually say the 1 and 6 are enough to give you a good idea). Be careful not to remove too much, it's a lot easier to check a saddle a couple of times than it is to take off too much and now have buzzes and need to replace and recarve the whole saddle (a lot harder than lowering it). Anyway, I hope that helps.

[capo2nd]

I play Takamine too. 'Tis top notch in every deed.

[acoustic_soul]

DADFAD, thanx a lot I'll read into that.

I'll go down this week n get me some light gauges n see if that works. And if that doesnt work, I"ll have somebody who's dealt with the truss rod, and have them do it for me. Thanx for the info every1.

This post has been edited by acoustic_soul: 07 June 2004 - 12:24 PM

[okiejohn]

It's my understanding that sometimes there's some shim material under the saddle.....could be all ya gotta do is remove the shim.

[wannalearn01]

It's my understanding that sometimes there's some shim material under the saddle.....could be all ya gotta do is remove the shim.

Last time I changed my strings I took them all off, and mine also had two "shims"...my action isn't "bad" but it isn't good. I had two small things that fell out and I got scared I broke something lol

I might try taking one of those out next time...anything I should watch out for?

T^roy

[okiejohn]

They're in there so you can lower the action if needed. If that doesn't get the strings low enough then ya gotta look at things like shaving the saddle down.

[cheapguitar]

Put some light strings on my ovation. The action was already good but now its very good. Seems like it plays very easy now.

[wannalearn01]

Man, somethings are so simple and I never think of it.

I was thinking my action changed the last time I changed my strings...but really I just changed the sized, went up one. Never thought that would make the action higher but it makes sense now!

Man, when things are right in front of my face I tend to not see them!

T^roy

[dadfad]

I always toss the empty string-pack in my case so that I know exactly what's on it, and I can tell if I want the same or different strings on it next changing-time.

[okiejohn]

Yep, Dad, seems the more years that pass by, the more we gotta do those little things to help ya remember what we did just yesterday.

My wife will run something by that I did or said years ago.....they have a way of remembering ALL the bad stuff....I just shake my head...."I said that?" or "I did that?"

Hell I can't remember what went on last week, much less 20 years ago.

[dadfad]

Yep, Dad, seems the more years that pass by, the more we gotta do those little things to help ya remember what we did just yesterday.

My wife will run something by that I did or said years ago.....they have a way of remembering ALL the bad stuff....I just shake my head...."I said that?" or "I did that?"

Hell I can't remember what went on last week, much less 20 years ago.

I know what you mean, Oke. But, hell, I just tell her she's crazy and remind her that her grandmother had Alzheimers and that shuts her up!







(For awhile! )

[deamhain]

I'm in the fortunate position of not knowing whether my action is good or bad. It's my first guitar and has the original strings - I just get on and play the thing! Mind, I've had a play around with a few electrics recently and the seem a hell of a lot easier to play. They didn't sound as nice though!

[wannalearn01]

Change those strings!

Factory strings(at least mine) were like knives compared to a good 10 dollar set...

Get those things off and some decent ones on and you'll enjoy playing it a lot more.

T^roy

[okiejohn]

Maybe not, some guitars come with elixers right outta the box, but the action may be a bit high.