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How to write good lyrics


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#1 Orchestrazia Ardwick

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 02:08 PM

Seriously, how? Someone tell me. It's not that I'm bad at using language, I don't think. I was always good at creative writing at school. And it's not for lack of things to write about, either, but I just can't write anything that's not either clichéd or phenomenally self-indulgent.

So to summarise... help? Please?

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#2 zooloo

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 03:58 PM

"Tell a story" - quote from some soul singer I don't recollect the name of.
Life is like a musical by Andrew Lloyd-Webber. Very popular and not as bad as some would have you believe. That is, unspeakably awful but mercifully brief.

#3 noodle69

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 04:45 PM

QUOTE (el_burton @ May 12 2009, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Seriously, how? Someone tell me. It's not that I'm bad at using language, I don't think. I was always good at creative writing at school. And it's not for lack of things to write about, either, but I just can't write anything that's not either clichéd or phenomenally self-indulgent.

So to summarise... help? Please?



the reason why it is difficult to do - is because we are all full of cliched crap given to us by a self indulgent society , raised on hate and spoonfed bullcrap on a daily basis to make sure we remain the mindless fools society needs us to be , in order for us to continue to bow down to its supreme , ultimate and audacious cheesiness.

if one were to step outside ones self and take a look at the fabric from which one is made - then the songwriting possibilities are endless .

lol

am i joking ?

edit

although having just looked at the amount of posts you have made since 2004 - i guess the real reason that you find it difficult to write songs is because you spend wayyyy to much time in forums writing inane things that are long forgotten even by your own good self ! hmmm makes you think innit ?

Edited by noodle69, 12 May 2009 - 04:49 PM.

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#4 chasyd

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 04:50 PM

For me I just write the first things that come to me and edit it from there. The key I think is speak honestly and if it doesnt make perfect sense its not always a bad thing as people should be able to make they're own interpretation of it.

#5 Will_Wood

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 05:47 PM

Everyone who tells you to keep from using cliches is full of sh*t. Use them, abuse them. The object of songwriting is not to show off your vocabulary or your great, poetic sense of wordplay. It's to well up feeling in others. Sure, I love really interesting words in songs, but I think that manipulation of cliches is often more meaningful than a slew of clever lines.

Sometimes "I love you" is the most important thing you can say in a song.

Also: Judging yourself is sh*t. Sure, you should view it as an art form and a craft that you can always improve in, but judging yourself too harshly is why you can't write.

It's also okay to be vague.


That's my 2 cents, anyways.
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#6 noodle69

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 06:41 PM

QUOTE (Will_Wood @ May 12 2009, 09:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Everyone who tells you to keep from using cliches is full of sh*t. Use them, abuse them. The object of songwriting is not to show off your vocabulary or your great, poetic sense of wordplay. It's to well up feeling in others. Sure, I love really interesting words in songs, but I think that manipulation of cliches is often more meaningful than a slew of clever lines.

Sometimes "I love you" is the most important thing you can say in a song.

Also: Judging yourself is sh*t. Sure, you should view it as an art form and a craft that you can always improve in, but judging yourself too harshly is why you can't write.

It's also okay to be vague.


That's my 2 cents, anyways.


thats harsh Will.

good songs become cliches thru terminal abuse from the minds of the unimaginative masses .That's how they become cliches !!! using a cliche ( such as " i love you ' )in such a way that its no longer recognisable as a cliche is clever but using it in the same old way holds little value , even in the commercial world of music . i guess its okay to be vague , if you aren't trying to be deep and meaningful and just wallowing around near the shallow waters of unexplored songwriting territory with little reason or idea .

for me , a subject matter is needed , and an approach toward the subject . the hooks of the song are the lines that would hopefully become cliche .

i think judging yourself is an asset - to be able to break yourself down and see what you are made of requires a great amount of inner strength , especially when you see that you are 99% cliche , no matter who you are . the remaining 1% is the clever part of yourself that can rearrange the cliche into something unusual and interesting .

thats my cliched 2 cents too ! smile.gif
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#7 Anapestic

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 09:51 PM

QUOTE (el_burton @ May 12 2009, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Seriously, how? Someone tell me. It's not that I'm bad at using language, I don't think. I was always good at creative writing at school. And it's not for lack of things to write about, either, but I just can't write anything that's not either clichéd or phenomenally self-indulgent.

So to summarise... help? Please?


I'm a selfish writer. I don't not write for anyone in particular, only myself. If you have nothing to write about.... I envy you. I find myself trapped within the walls of my mind everyday and I relieve the pressure by pouring that emotion and that excess thought on to a piece a paper. Music is my therapy, it allows me to somewhat cling to my sanity.
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#8 Will_Wood

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 10:53 PM

QUOTE (noodle69 @ May 12 2009, 07:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Will_Wood @ May 12 2009, 09:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Everyone who tells you to keep from using cliches is full of sh*t. Use them, abuse them. The object of songwriting is not to show off your vocabulary or your great, poetic sense of wordplay. It's to well up feeling in others. Sure, I love really interesting words in songs, but I think that manipulation of cliches is often more meaningful than a slew of clever lines.

Sometimes "I love you" is the most important thing you can say in a song.

Also: Judging yourself is sh*t. Sure, you should view it as an art form and a craft that you can always improve in, but judging yourself too harshly is why you can't write.

It's also okay to be vague.


That's my 2 cents, anyways.


thats harsh Will.

good songs become cliches thru terminal abuse from the minds of the unimaginative masses .That's how they become cliches !!! using a cliche ( such as " i love you ' )in such a way that its no longer recognisable as a cliche is clever but using it in the same old way holds little value , even in the commercial world of music . i guess its okay to be vague , if you aren't trying to be deep and meaningful and just wallowing around near the shallow waters of unexplored songwriting territory with little reason or idea .

for me , a subject matter is needed , and an approach toward the subject . the hooks of the song are the lines that would hopefully become cliche .

i think judging yourself is an asset - to be able to break yourself down and see what you are made of requires a great amount of inner strength , especially when you see that you are 99% cliche , no matter who you are . the remaining 1% is the clever part of yourself that can rearrange the cliche into something unusual and interesting .

thats my cliched 2 cents too ! smile.gif

You're talking nonsense. Terminal abuse from the minds of the unimaginative masses? What makes you so much more imaginative and ingenious than the masses? You don't see anything that others don't see, and neither do I. Attempting to write a masterpiece is what kills masterpieces. 'Sall I'm sayin'.
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#9 BrokenMirror

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 12:07 AM

QUOTE (noodle69 @ May 13 2009, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (el_burton @ May 12 2009, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Seriously, how? Someone tell me. It's not that I'm bad at using language, I don't think. I was always good at creative writing at school. And it's not for lack of things to write about, either, but I just can't write anything that's not either clichéd or phenomenally self-indulgent.

So to summarise... help? Please?



the reason why it is difficult to do - is because we are all full of cliched crap given to us by a self indulgent society , raised on hate and spoonfed bullcrap on a daily basis to make sure we remain the mindless fools society needs us to be , in order for us to continue to bow down to its supreme , ultimate and audacious cheesiness.

if one were to step outside ones self and take a look at the fabric from which one is made - then the songwriting possibilities are endless .

lol

am i joking ?

edit

although having just looked at the amount of posts you have made since 2004 - i guess the real reason that you find it difficult to write songs is because you spend wayyyy to much time in forums writing inane things that are long forgotten even by your own good self ! hmmm makes you think innit ?


Snobbish nonsense.

Alex, all you need to do is say what you feel. You can jazz it up with rhyme and other devices later. The important part is translating your soul into words.

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#10 noodle69

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 04:36 AM

QUOTE (Will_Wood @ May 13 2009, 02:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (noodle69 @ May 12 2009, 07:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Will_Wood @ May 12 2009, 09:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Everyone who tells you to keep from using cliches is full of sh*t. Use them, abuse them. The object of songwriting is not to show off your vocabulary or your great, poetic sense of wordplay. It's to well up feeling in others. Sure, I love really interesting words in songs, but I think that manipulation of cliches is often more meaningful than a slew of clever lines.

Sometimes "I love you" is the most important thing you can say in a song.

Also: Judging yourself is sh*t. Sure, you should view it as an art form and a craft that you can always improve in, but judging yourself too harshly is why you can't write.

It's also okay to be vague.


That's my 2 cents, anyways.


thats harsh Will.

good songs become cliches thru terminal abuse from the minds of the unimaginative masses .That's how they become cliches !!! using a cliche ( such as " i love you ' )in such a way that its no longer recognisable as a cliche is clever but using it in the same old way holds little value , even in the commercial world of music . i guess its okay to be vague , if you aren't trying to be deep and meaningful and just wallowing around near the shallow waters of unexplored songwriting territory with little reason or idea .

for me , a subject matter is needed , and an approach toward the subject . the hooks of the song are the lines that would hopefully become cliche .

i think judging yourself is an asset - to be able to break yourself down and see what you are made of requires a great amount of inner strength , especially when you see that you are 99% cliche , no matter who you are . the remaining 1% is the clever part of yourself that can rearrange the cliche into something unusual and interesting .

thats my cliched 2 cents too ! smile.gif

You're talking nonsense. Terminal abuse from the minds of the unimaginative masses? What makes you so much more imaginative and ingenious than the masses? You don't see anything that others don't see, and neither do I. Attempting to write a masterpiece is what kills masterpieces. 'Sall I'm sayin'.



unfortunatey Will , it is you who now seems to be talking nonsense as you seem to be getting all personal . i didnt say i was more imaginative than anybody else , did i ? i didnt even imply it - if i did , i would be glad if you were to point it out . smile.gif

it seems that you may have thought i was directly accusing you of being unimaginative , correct me if i'm wrong , but however much you may think you are like that is not my problem .

"terminal abuse from the minds of the unimaginative masses" was a way of describing the birth of a cliche - if the masses didn't say it often enough - it wouldn't become a cliche , would it ?
and what i meant in terms of mindless was the amount of things that we have in our heads that aren't actually our own imaginations , are very high , maybe not 99% (lol) but it was to make a point , which you clearly didn't understand at all , which doesn't make it nonsense , do you understasnd rocket science, or is that nonsense as well ?



remember that i love you - no matter what i say

#11 w00dy

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 11:11 AM

imo, as a pop culture vulture, if you can sing it after listening to it once then its probably a good song lyric, be it a cliche, biblical quote, scientific paper, rally chant or a poetry classic

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#12 Will_Wood

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 11:20 AM

QUOTE (noodle69 @ May 13 2009, 05:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Will_Wood @ May 13 2009, 02:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (noodle69 @ May 12 2009, 07:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Will_Wood @ May 12 2009, 09:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Everyone who tells you to keep from using cliches is full of sh*t. Use them, abuse them. The object of songwriting is not to show off your vocabulary or your great, poetic sense of wordplay. It's to well up feeling in others. Sure, I love really interesting words in songs, but I think that manipulation of cliches is often more meaningful than a slew of clever lines.

Sometimes "I love you" is the most important thing you can say in a song.

Also: Judging yourself is sh*t. Sure, you should view it as an art form and a craft that you can always improve in, but judging yourself too harshly is why you can't write.

It's also okay to be vague.


That's my 2 cents, anyways.


thats harsh Will.

good songs become cliches thru terminal abuse from the minds of the unimaginative masses .That's how they become cliches !!! using a cliche ( such as " i love you ' )in such a way that its no longer recognisable as a cliche is clever but using it in the same old way holds little value , even in the commercial world of music . i guess its okay to be vague , if you aren't trying to be deep and meaningful and just wallowing around near the shallow waters of unexplored songwriting territory with little reason or idea .

for me , a subject matter is needed , and an approach toward the subject . the hooks of the song are the lines that would hopefully become cliche .

i think judging yourself is an asset - to be able to break yourself down and see what you are made of requires a great amount of inner strength , especially when you see that you are 99% cliche , no matter who you are . the remaining 1% is the clever part of yourself that can rearrange the cliche into something unusual and interesting .

thats my cliched 2 cents too ! smile.gif

You're talking nonsense. Terminal abuse from the minds of the unimaginative masses? What makes you so much more imaginative and ingenious than the masses? You don't see anything that others don't see, and neither do I. Attempting to write a masterpiece is what kills masterpieces. 'Sall I'm sayin'.



unfortunatey Will , it is you who now seems to be talking nonsense as you seem to be getting all personal . i didnt say i was more imaginative than anybody else , did i ? i didnt even imply it - if i did , i would be glad if you were to point it out . smile.gif

it seems that you may have thought i was directly accusing you of being unimaginative , correct me if i'm wrong , but however much you may think you are like that is not my problem .

"terminal abuse from the minds of the unimaginative masses" was a way of describing the birth of a cliche - if the masses didn't say it often enough - it wouldn't become a cliche , would it ?
and what i meant in terms of mindless was the amount of things that we have in our heads that aren't actually our own imaginations , are very high , maybe not 99% (lol) but it was to make a point , which you clearly didn't understand at all , which doesn't make it nonsense , do you understasnd rocket science, or is that nonsense as well ?

Accusing the masses of being unimaginative generally implies that you think you are more imaginative. I wasn't intending to get personal, as I included myself when I said that neither of us is more imaginative than the masses. Cliche has existed for centuries and it's not a negative thing. The purpose of language is to communicate, and like I said before, nothing communicates more than "Same old ######, different day", "I love you", "Her eyes were black as midnight".

In one of my recent songs, I actually use the lyrics in the chorus:

You are tall as a mountain
With the arms of a crashing wave
And you are gone away from Oregon
To keep away from me

Simple? Cliche? Yeah, but to everyone I've played it to, they say the chorus is the best part of the song. I'm not saying it's wrong to want to be clever, but wanting to be clever over being emotive is folly.
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#13 noodle69

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 04:03 PM

so you are saying that the masses are imaginative ? hmmmm - we are not - we mindlessly consume anything we are given on a daily basis ! i too was including myself aswell .
i know about cliche , i was describing how cliche comes to be .

you , it seems do not , your song contains no cliche whatsoever , and i haven't for a moment said that being clever over being emotive isn't a folly , although there are many circumstances where that may be true , especially if an emotive response is uncontrolled an therefore lacks intelligence.
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#14 noodle69

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 04:09 PM

QUOTE (BrokenMirror @ May 13 2009, 04:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (noodle69 @ May 13 2009, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (el_burton @ May 12 2009, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Seriously, how? Someone tell me. It's not that I'm bad at using language, I don't think. I was always good at creative writing at school. And it's not for lack of things to write about, either, but I just can't write anything that's not either clichéd or phenomenally self-indulgent.

So to summarise... help? Please?



the reason why it is difficult to do - is because we are all full of cliched crap given to us by a self indulgent society , raised on hate and spoonfed bullcrap on a daily basis to make sure we remain the mindless fools society needs us to be , in order for us to continue to bow down to its supreme , ultimate and audacious cheesiness.

if one were to step outside ones self and take a look at the fabric from which one is made - then the songwriting possibilities are endless .

lol

am i joking ?

edit

although having just looked at the amount of posts you have made since 2004 - i guess the real reason that you find it difficult to write songs is because you spend wayyyy to much time in forums writing inane things that are long forgotten even by your own good self ! hmmm makes you think innit ?


Snobbish nonsense.

Alex, all you need to do is say what you feel. You can jazz it up with rhyme and other devices later. The important part is translating your soul into words.


you call me a snob - i guess you are an inverted snob with your ridiculous advice . you make no sense . "jazz it up with rhyme" and " other devices" - what the hell does that mean ?
then you go on to say that "the important part is translating your soul into words" - how ? thats what he was asking in the first place - you've given him nothing to work with at all .
you may aswell tell him that god will help him if he prays enough !


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#15 Mantrasolo

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 06:56 PM

It's all subjective. What works for some doesn't work for others. Who knows, there might be some fella out there that likes your stuff, el_burton? Maybe some other self-indulgent dude. Find out who your audience is, and write to them.

I just like to write in general. I like the idea of creating something out of nothing. Sure, I end up using cliches every now and then, but my danger is that sometimes you can get too close to your influences, and when you're in that comfort zone you'll start end up mimicing them instead of drawing ideas and inspiration from them.
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#16 Weff Jebster

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 08:46 AM

The lyrics that I write that end up being the most popular are the ones that mean absolutely nothing to me, delivered in such a way that it appears that it does. That way there might be some sort of connection between listener and lyric, even if artist and lyric don't share that same connection. Then, eventually, you might actually come up with a song for something you give a damn about and then there you go.

So pretend you care about something enough to write a song about it, then write that song. You might hate it, but other people might love it.
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#17 w00dy

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 01:30 AM

el_burton can we hear or read some of your 'clichéd or phenomenally self-indulgent' lyrics please? my guess is they are nowhere near as clichéd or phenomenally self-indulgent as you belive - and even if they are so what, big whoopy-doodar - you can rewrite them.

Edited by w00dy, 15 May 2009 - 01:30 AM.

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go on give it a listen, it's good.

 


#18 noodle69

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 01:59 AM

lol - eggsackerterlee !


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#19 dorio

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 02:09 AM


Seems like learning to write lyrics is somewhat like learning an instrument it takes time so a lot of practice (the only difference is with lyricism you dont have the music theory to learn) The first lyrics you write are crap then as you go on you'll get better.

Finding your style takes a while but once you find it you wont have problems to write. It will come naturally without forcing. All you need to do if you have the necessary motivation is to work on it.

I'd say the first step is to start to write again and again even if you dont like what you write even if its full of cliches you keep on writing and you just dont stop. Rome wasnt built in a day. And remember there are no rules you just do your own thing.

#20 gravity

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 02:23 AM

What a little gem. Surely the collective whining of your posts in discussion are a fairly good starting point. Just select say 50 at random...........jumble them up............remove the links to the bbc website (because they don't work in songs!).............and Bobs your uncle.

Otherwise I largely agree with Will.

What I will add is my view about writing in general and ask 1 question. What is your motivation for writing? I find it that the greatest offences to songwriting/lyric writing/poetry/whatever stem from what i see as an incorrect motivation. I know it doesn't make much sense as technically a motivation cannot be incorrect however writing for the sake of writing can be extremely ineffective.

Writing because it helps you get your thoughts together or because it works as some form of catharsis tends to produce the best results. People can pick up on genuine honesty in lyrics and in my opinion that alone makes it work regardless of any technical merit or lack of.

But its often the honesty thats the biggest problem because when you look down on a bit of paper full of very personal observations about yourself it can suddenly become very difficult to take the work seriously. You start critiquing yourself and not the song. Then you start thinking about how other people will view the song but any negative comments suddenly become a criticism of you as a person.

People who just write bollocks because they want to be famous don't ever have to wrestle with this issue.

In my opinion getting over that hurdle and being able to display that kind of honesty can be a huge leap forward for anyones songwriting. But that all comes from understanding why you are writing.

Ramble over.
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