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Another article about Tranhumanism orHow long before the robots F#$% things up.


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#1 Major Major

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:41 AM

Will Google know you better than your intimate Partner?

 

 

 

 

I have a great respect for Books like Freakanomics because they demonstrate how seemingly unrelated data can actually reveal much more about the world than we would have suspected. For instance the author of this work makes a connection about lower crime in the inner city and the legalization of abortions in the Roe Vs. Wade case many years earlier. The lower crime was a mystery; Many theories had been tossed around regarding what was responsible in the sudden drop in crime right when it was believed that crime would continue to rise out of control. Many attributed the drop in new techniques in law enforcement such as "The Broken Window Theory". Which from what I understand, I don't agree with. When, however, you take the seemingly unrelated court case and put it into the context of there simply being literally less young people being born into poverty due to options available to poor mothers and therefore less young people to commit crimes overall,  it seems almost self evident that there is probably a degree of connection. 

 

So, I am excited about such a process being automated. Computers that can basically process and understand brobdingnagian amounts of natural language information as well as statistical and any other kind of data. Computers that can basically think much better and faster than us.

 

The movie Her,does a pretty good job of visually realizing what that future might look like. I was enamored and excited by many facets of the flick including one scene where 'Samantha' the AI Operating System is able to read everything the main character has ever written, organize, critique and submit his "best" work for publication all without any assistance or feedback.  I like such versions of our possible techno-future.

 

...but yeah, there's also the much darker and more likely possible future where everything about us is known to a frightening degree of accuracy simply by analyzing large amounts of relevant data on us and those similar to ourselves. A true end to privacy where spying isn't necessary because the information is already available to who knows who?

we're obviously moving in that direction at a rate few of us would have guessed without sounding like conspiracy nuts. 

 

so, as we stand on the cusp of this brave new world whether it tilts one way or another we have to wonder if are we more excited? or frightened?

 

any thoughts peeps?


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#2 maungabluesy

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 05:16 AM

Correlation vs causation
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#3 Major Major

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:07 AM

in regards to what? Correlation in terms of the Freakanomics thing? possibly. but the important first bit is establishing the correlations. Then you get the causations...then you get the womens


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#4 maungabluesy

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:44 AM

I fear you're overestimating the seductive power of statistics.

 

Also this reminds me of that Dirk Gently episode where the computer programme does this to make a logically infallible argument for invading Mexico


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#5 Major Major

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:33 PM

And I feel very strongly that you're grossly underestimating the use of big data collection and analytics to make very accurate predictions. 


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#6 maungabluesy

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:43 PM

Well.  I guess that it should be a neutral thing.  Making entirely neutral and agenda-free predictions that should be heeded by us all.  Which inevitably means it will all, in fact, be entirely ignored or ridiculed. 

 

It'll say something about the climate doing this or that, and turn into a political football.

 

It'll say something about economic growth this, poverty that, education something else and turn into a political football.

 

having information is one thing, using it is quite another.


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#7 Major Major

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:09 PM

I don't get your meaning on this one. essplain yourself sir!

 

Maybe I'm unclear. 

 

If a computer has access to where you live, have lived. where your parents live, where your friends live, what they purchase, what you've purchased, what they've stated is their intent to purchase etc...basically just a wealth of information then that computer can probably tell you what you're going to purchase in the next year with a high degree of accuracy long before you've even considered the purchase yourself. It can do this blindly so to speak...It doesn't really "Know" but the available information will lead to a likely accurate result.  Now, go just a bit further where the computer can understand the data being fed to it and you have something else entirely you have genuine AI.


Edited by Stormageddon, 25 February 2014 - 01:16 PM.

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#8 w00dy

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:29 PM

yeah my mate made me google "depression", coz well he's angry downsville coz of stress (common in drivers) and his girlfriend has cheated on him (common in hummanity) so i googled "depression in my friend" so the canadian pharmacy dont start flooding me with grow a big cock emails. y'know!


coz im perfectly happy with this average sized one. tbh its like a button mushroom on a foam fat suit dolly when its small, but by god when its average sized ive made a girl or two howl at the moon so fuck off with your big monster cocks


Edited by w00dy, 25 February 2014 - 01:41 PM.

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#9 Seán

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:33 PM

I think it's pretty far off if it's ever going to happen. Makes me think of Netflix, where they'll suggest something based on something else I watched and I'll be like why the fuck do you think I would be interested in that? Even boring lame people are complicated as shit.


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#10 wafffle

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:34 PM

I don't get your meaning on this one. essplain yourself sir!
 
Maybe I'm unclear. 
 
If a computer has access to where you live, have lived. where your parents live, where your friends live, what they purchase, what you've purchased, what they've stated is their intent to purchase etc...basically just a wealth of information then that computer can probably tell you what you're going to purchase in the next year with a high degree of accuracy long before you've even considered the purchase yourself. It can do this blindly so to speak...It doesn't really "Know" but the available information will lead to a likely accurate result.  Now, go just a bit further where the computer can understand the data being fed to it and you have something else entirely you have genuine AI.


I think his point is "what's the point?" I mean, AI sounds good, but, why do you need to know what you're going to buy before you buy it? You don't, but, the corporation making the thing you will buy does. In the end, is the information really useful to anyone but big business?

#11 Major Major

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:43 PM

 

I don't get your meaning on this one. essplain yourself sir!
 
Maybe I'm unclear. 
 
If a computer has access to where you live, have lived. where your parents live, where your friends live, what they purchase, what you've purchased, what they've stated is their intent to purchase etc...basically just a wealth of information then that computer can probably tell you what you're going to purchase in the next year with a high degree of accuracy long before you've even considered the purchase yourself. It can do this blindly so to speak...It doesn't really "Know" but the available information will lead to a likely accurate result.  Now, go just a bit further where the computer can understand the data being fed to it and you have something else entirely you have genuine AI.


I think his point is "what's the point?" I mean, AI sounds good, but, why do you need to know what you're going to buy before you buy it? You don't, but, the corporation making the thing you will buy does. In the end, is the information really useful to anyone but big business?

 

 

 

I think it's pretty far off if it's ever going to happen. Makes me think of Netflix, where they'll suggest something based on something else I watched and I'll be like why the fuck do you think I would be interested in that? Even boring lame people are complicated as shit.

Netflix does the same thing, but what I've noticed is they get it right more often than not. Things I'd never watch I try and find more enjoyable than I would have thought possible. 

Amazon as another example is great at making buying suggestions for things completely (seemingly) unrelated to my buying history or search. 

Yes, its creepy that companies can do this. Im not happy about that. but its the reality. And they're getting better at it at an exponential rate.

 

The question isn't really about what we want or need from computers in the next 15 years its about how will we adapt to the fact that they can and do these amazing things that will impact our lives in way we can't imagine. Consider the smartphone...imagine all the things it can do today that you would never have pictured having a use for 5 years ago? Imagine a Smartphone ten years from now. I can't. 

But there will be one. 


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#12 w00dy

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:46 PM

netflicks could easy trick people into watching more shit on the internet by only showing stuff thats not shit. who the fuck wants quantiy instead of quality? besides most of us


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#13 maungabluesy

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:59 PM

So......this (possibly but I'm of a mind to dispute the extent) ai system will be able to know and comprehend the sum total of all the information on the internet.  every email, every forum post, every blog, every online purchase, video watch, music stream etc etc ad infinitum

 

except it's not ad infinitum.  can you really be that well known by the sum total of your internet history?  that'd be a depressing truth.  Plus, what of free will?  What if I don't want what I've bought before, I fancy a change, but the computer's just recommending the same old same old. 

 

"you know what?  i fancy a vegetarian pizza today"

"does not compute"

"fuck you!"

"i knew you'd say that"

 

 

 

 

on another note, the more sinister angle about google or whoever watching and comprehending our every utterances, imagine a future net where we develop new constantly evolving slang languages like a twenty-whatever-eth century internet cockney rhyming slang, to try and evade the comprehension filters


ps in a world where the internet and related technology has become an all-seeing corporate big brother, surely everyone will either a. invent a new free internet or b.   ........................ just go offline?


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#14 crab man

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:07 PM

there is no going back offline. ever. we've changed peoples expectations of what life and communication are, permanently. the network will never be allowed to die, as long as there are people

#15 w00dy

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:14 PM

actually i dont think its quite as simple as whom so ever gets the most press coverage sells the most shit and is therefore the most important person around. lets face fuckerty fuck fuck that is what being an alpha male is. if so miley cyrus would not have been such a forgetable name. how many months ago where she one of the most famous people on the planet? now what is she? a pretty girl with a smart haircut and they are on everystreet corner


Edited by w00dy, 25 February 2014 - 02:16 PM.

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#16 Major Major

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:22 PM

So......this (possibly but I'm of a mind to dispute the extent) ai system will be able to know and comprehend the sum total of all the information on the internet.  every email, every forum post, every blog, every online purchase, video watch, music stream etc etc ad infinitum

 

except it's not ad infinitum.  can you really be that well known by the sum total of your internet history?  that'd be a depressing truth.  Plus, what of free will?  What if I don't want what I've bought before, I fancy a change, but the computer's just recommending the same old same old. 

 

"you know what?  i fancy a vegetarian pizza today"

"does not compute"

"fuck you!"

"i knew you'd say that"

 

 

 

 

on another note, the more sinister angle about google or whoever watching and comprehending our every utterances, imagine a future net where we develop new constantly evolving slang languages like a twenty-whatever-eth century internet cockney rhyming slang, to try and evade the comprehension filters


ps in a world where the internet and related technology has become an all-seeing corporate big brother, surely everyone will either a. invent a new free internet or b.   ........................ just go offline?

Im going to play Devil's Advocate to address some of what you've said. I don't necessarily agree. 

 

This system will be able to know and comprehend possibly the sum total of information period. 

There will still be what we understand as free will, but perhaps we'll understand it a bit better,.or more completely It may not be as free as we now think...That's not a pleasant thought but it might still be truth. Its pretty well known that most choices are actually made several seconds before we consciously believe we're making them. So, already we have free will slightly changed from our conventional understanding of it. 

 

As for the computer recommending the "same old same old" you're implementing a prejudice with that assumption. you're assuming that what the computer is doing isn't actually thinking but  making a few predictions based on whatever engine is powering it. But if it is thinking, and has enough data, say for instance, the buying habits of the entire western hemisphere..it should be able to take into account spontaneity to a certain degree...perhaps we'll find spontaneity actually conforms to pretty readily to certain rules and established behaviors. I don't know but we shouldn't assume that the AI would be any less capable of rational thought than we ourselves are.

 

I think what this article is putting forward is that in the near future, we may not be the most advanced form of intelligence on this planet...as we currently assume we are.


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#17 maungabluesy

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:25 PM

If we are sleep walking into a world in which our only remaining expression of freedom is to be as contrary as possible as often as possible, I guess that means bob is neo. Reese is screwed though.

Although....I wonder what the google seed would make of someone who liked everything? Reese could be a trojan horse. I feel a short story coming on.

also everyone watch Demon seed. I'd completely forgotten about it. Its like the dark flip side to Her, only rather incredibly it was made in the 70's.
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#18 maungabluesy

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:28 PM


So......this (possibly but I'm of a mind to dispute the extent) ai system will be able to know and comprehend the sum total of all the information on the internet. every email, every forum post, every blog, every online purchase, video watch, music stream etc etc ad infinitum

except it's not ad infinitum. can you really be that well known by the sum total of your internet history? that'd be a depressing truth. Plus, what of free will? What if I don't want what I've bought before, I fancy a change, but the computer's just recommending the same old same old.

"you know what? i fancy a vegetarian pizza today"
"does not compute"
"fuck you!"
"i knew you'd say that"




on another note, the more sinister angle about google or whoever watching and comprehending our every utterances, imagine a future net where we develop new constantly evolving slang languages like a twenty-whatever-eth century internet cockney rhyming slang, to try and evade the comprehension filters

ps in a world where the internet and related technology has become an all-seeing corporate big brother, surely everyone will either a. invent a new free internet or b. ........................ just go offline?

Im going to play Devil's Advocate to address some of what you've said. I don't necessarily agree.

This system will be able to know and comprehend possibly the sum total of information period.
There will still be what we understand as free will, but perhaps we'll understand it a bit better,.or more completely It may not be as free as we now think...That's not a pleasant thought but it might still be truth. Its pretty well known that most choices are actually made several seconds before we consciously believe we're making them. So, already we have free will slightly changed from our conventional understanding of it.

As for the computer recommending the "same old same old" you're implementing a prejudice with that assumption. you're assuming that what the computer is doing isn't actually thinking but making a few predictions based on whatever engine is powering it. But if it is thinking, and has enough data, say for instance, the buying habits of the entire western hemisphere..it should be able to take into account spontaneity to a certain degree...perhaps we'll find spontaneity actually conforms to pretty readily to certain rules and established behaviors. I don't know but we shouldn't assume that the AI would be any less capable of rational thought than we ourselves are.

I think what this article is putting forward is that in the near future, we may not be the most advanced form of intelligence on this planet...as we currently assume we are.

Then I think where I'm going to disagree with the article is its confidence in the development of actual true ai, as opposed to a very sophisticated data aggregator that can appear to be ai.
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#19 Major Major

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:31 PM

That's fair. we can do that. 


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#20 Seán

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:36 PM

If we are sleep walking into a world in which our only remaining expression of freedom is to be as contrary as possible as often as possible, I guess that means bob is neo. Reese is screwed though.

 

I was going to mention contrariness. You could check with my real-world friends to confirm that I do this just be a dick more often than not, and especially when someone makes an assumption about me (true or otherwise). So I'd fuck with the AI on principle and it doesn't matter how accurate it's predictions are I would dispute them and then what would it learn about me except that it probably doesn't want to do me any favours anymore and maybe feels a bit antagonistic towards me and then maybe that's when the attacks start?


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