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#1 Herr Rararr

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 07:21 AM

I've become a little bit obsessed with it recently.  It started when I ended up watching every Mike Tyson fight in order until he got beaten by Buster Douglas - young Mike Tyson is fascinating - he was pure gristle, muscle, hit so hard and was focussed.  It was so noticeable the change when he split from Kevin Rooney and Don King got his claws in and then of course there's everything that followed, but if you want true boxing excitement it was hard to beat Tyson back in the 80's.

 

Then I started playing Fight Night 4 again and I need help that I've become so obsessed with it.

 

Anyway, as you were.


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#2 sixgunsound

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 09:38 AM

Oh yeah, I was a big boxing fan back in "the day" (that is before all the UFC nonsense). Tyson vs. Holyfield was one of the best fights of all time. Later I would download a screensaver of a set of wind -up teeth chasing an ear around a boxing ring. This made my dad angry, but not as angry as the Mr. Hankey screensaver. 

 

I like boxing over UFC because I'm convinced someone will leave the ring dead someday. Boxing has class. Like, the queen could sit there and suffer a bout. 


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#3 Herr Rararr

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 09:50 AM

UFC makes me feel sick watching it - it's the beating them while they're down part. I know they're both brutal sports.

 

The sad thing about boxing is that it got taken away from the people by becoming PPV only.  I'm excited about Anthony Joshua, he's obscenely big and he could be just the kind of champ needed.


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#4 sixgunsound

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 09:59 AM

I wouldn't fight that guy lol!

 

Completely agree on your point vis a vis UFC. I look at it like Roman gladiators: once it was legal for them to fight to the death, then it was made illegal, then things went downhill back to killing. But the salient point is that one day someone died and... people cheered. 

 

I'm waiting for that moment with UFC. 


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#5 adds

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 11:28 AM

Years ago I used to love watching Tyson but over the years I've come to accept he was the most over rated heavy weight in the history of the sport. His marketing team was fantastic and he looked great ago and the right opponent B it the reality is as soon as he fought anyone half decent he got his arse handed to him. It took me a long time to see it but he really wasn't that great. I wouldn't even put him in the top 20 heavyweights of all time. He looked great because the picked his opponents carefully and there wasn't many great heavyweights in his time. Had he been around in the golden era he would have been knocked out by all of them. I often see people arguing about what if Tyson old have fought Ali. I can't help but laugh. Ali would have ruined Tyson. Tyson couldn't deal with Holyfield and Holyfield couldn't deal with George Forman in his old age. Ali is the only person to ever knock Forman out and he done it in formans prime. Tyson had never avenged a single loss. Never come back from a knockdown to my knowledge. He really wasn't all that. Just a very well marketed fighter.

#6 Herr Rararr

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 11:43 AM

Years ago I used to love watching Tyson but over the years I've come to accept he was the most over rated heavy weight in the history of the sport. His marketing team was fantastic and he looked great ago and the right opponent B it the reality is as soon as he fought anyone half decent he got his arse handed to him. It took me a long time to see it but he really wasn't that great. I wouldn't even put him in the top 20 heavyweights of all time. He looked great because the picked his opponents carefully and there wasn't many great heavyweights in his time. Had he been around in the golden era he would have been knocked out by all of them. I often see people arguing about what if Tyson old have fought Ali. I can't help but laugh. Ali would have ruined Tyson. Tyson couldn't deal with Holyfield and Holyfield couldn't deal with George Forman in his old age. Ali is the only person to ever knock Forman out and he done it in formans prime. Tyson had never avenged a single loss. Never come back from a knockdown to my knowledge. He really wasn't all that. Just a very well marketed fighter.

 

Bollocks.  Tyson, up to Buster Douglas was a monster - he was a product of Cus D'Amato - it was about competing and not about the individual.  Then he fired his trainer and started doing stupid stuff, became an alcoholic and a drug addict. I stopped watching the fights because it was so sad to see what he became.  He could have been one of the greatest if he hadn't gone off track....but he did.  That's why those 3-4 years were utterly glorious, he was untouchable.


Also, Ali was a prick.  A talented prick, but an utter prick.


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#7 adds

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 04:18 AM

Years ago I used to love watching Tyson but over the years I've come to accept he was the most over rated heavy weight in the history of the sport. His marketing team was fantastic and he looked great ago and the right opponent B it the reality is as soon as he fought anyone half decent he got his arse handed to him. It took me a long time to see it but he really wasn't that great. I wouldn't even put him in the top 20 heavyweights of all time. He looked great because the picked his opponents carefully and there wasn't many great heavyweights in his time. Had he been around in the golden era he would have been knocked out by all of them. I often see people arguing about what if Tyson old have fought Ali. I can't help but laugh. Ali would have ruined Tyson. Tyson couldn't deal with Holyfield and Holyfield couldn't deal with George Forman in his old age. Ali is the only person to ever knock Forman out and he done it in formans prime. Tyson had never avenged a single loss. Never come back from a knockdown to my knowledge. He really wasn't all that. Just a very well marketed fighter.

Bollocks. Tyson, up to Buster Douglas was a monster - he was a product of Cus D'Amato - it was about competing and not about the individual. Then he fired his trainer and started doing stupid stuff, became an alcoholic and a drug addict. I stopped watching the fights because it was so sad to see what he became. He could have been one of the greatest if he hadn't gone off track....but he did. That's why those 3-4 years were utterly glorious, he was untouchable.

Also, Ali was a prick. A talented prick, but an utter prick.
really please tell me then who had Tyson actually fought and beat? Tyson upto buster Douglas had never fought anyone. That's my point that's why he looked so good. Larry holms was an old man and well past it when they fought so rule him out. He ducked Lewis and had to pay him off millions and when they did finally fight he got his arse handed to him. He lost against every decent fight he ever fought that's a fact you can't get away from. Just go onto YouTube and look at one of your Tyson knock out compilation videos and you will see there is no one. He lost to some piss poor opponents. I'm well aware of where he came from his trainers etc I followed the myth closely. I've heard all the excuses oh it was because cuss died oh its because he sacked Kevin Rooney, . Oh it's because of the time he spent out of the gave in prison. Ali spent years in prison came out took it back. Cos died before he was even champion. People say he lost to Douglas because of his divorce which is also bollocks he beat Bruno closer to the divorce that he fought Douglas. What's it that say about Lewis oh if he had fought Lewis in his prime. Lewis was the older fighter. Tyson was more in his prime than Lewis. The reality is he looked good knocking out carefuly picked fighters. The facts speak for themselves he lost the minute he stepped in the ring with anyone half decent. People can make all the excuses for him but that's the reality. He never once came back to avenge a loss. He had most of his fights won before they got in the ring. Once people realised the myth and the fear was gone. The psychological game was over. He had nothing left. Fighters could see the emperor had no clothes. He was done .

I met Ali years ago in London and found him to be a really decent bloke. Had a lot of time for his fans. Wasn't rude, great to the kids etc. Interested to know why you hold that opinion of him. Either way Tyson would not have given Ali any trouble in the ring. Even Tyson says himself that he never could have beaten him..

Edited by adds, 14 December 2016 - 04:22 AM.


#8 Herr Rararr

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 05:17 AM

I know D'Amato died before he was champ, but it was Kevin Rooney who kept him grounded and focused.  Also, he was pile of shit before/after prison, the turning point was definitely when Don King became involved and his personal problems became more important.  Don't watch the knockout compilations, watch the full fights and you can see what kind of boxer he was and what he could have been. I'm not arguing that he was the greatest, I'm not arguing that he could have beaten Ali, I'm saying that he had a 3-4 year period where he was untouchable.  He fought everyone he came against and and he annihilated them.  He fought Berbick (champion), Spinks (champion), Holmes (yes, old, but a champion), Quick Tillis (a championship contender), Bonecrusher Smith (champion), Pinklon Thomas (champion), Tony Tucker (champion, albeit shortest reign in history, ha), Biggs (title challenger, olympic gold medallist), Tony Tubbs (champion).

 

Yeah, you're right...he fought no-one.  He fought who was around him and he decimated them.  He also fought a lot of journeymen - but that's essential to build up experience and craft, but also he was fighting every 2 weeks - could you imagine that now?

 

The reason I think Ali was a prick was the way he took trash-talking to another level, he brutalized Joe Frazier out of the ring, his family too.  It wasn't classy.

 

If you could match up Ali/Tyson at their primes I'm pretty sure Ali would win simply based on speed of foot and being able to stay on the outside. Tyson's reach was minuscule in comparison and Ali could also take a punch.


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#9 sixgunsound

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 06:25 AM

The last good boxing match I watched was De La Hoya in like 2003. Ain't the same anymore. 


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#10 adds

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 12:35 AM

I know D'Amato died before he was champ, but it was Kevin Rooney who kept him grounded and focused. Also, he was pile of shit before/after prison, the turning point was definitely when Don King became involved and his personal problems became more important. Don't watch the knockout compilations, watch the full fights and you can see what kind of boxer he was and what he could have been. I'm not arguing that he was the greatest, I'm not arguing that he could have beaten Ali, I'm saying that he had a 3-4 year period where he was untouchable. He fought everyone he came against and and he annihilated them. He fought Berbick (champion), Spinks (champion), Holmes (yes, old, but a champion), Quick Tillis (a championship contender), Bonecrusher Smith (champion), Pinklon Thomas (champion), Tony Tucker (champion, albeit shortest reign in history, ha), Biggs (title challenger, olympic gold medallist), Tony Tubbs (champion).

Yeah, you're right...he fought no-one. He fought who was around him and he decimated them. He also fought a lot of journeymen - but that's essential to build up experience and craft, but also he was fighting every 2 weeks - could you imagine that now?

The reason I think Ali was a prick was the way he took trash-talking to another level, he brutalized Joe Frazier out of the ring, his family too. It wasn't classy.

If you could match up Ali/Tyson at their primes I'm pretty sure Ali would win simply based on speed of foot and being able to stay on the outside. Tyson's reach was minuscule in comparison and Ali could also take a punch.

I've watched them I followed him all the way through. All those people were middle leage. Tyson fury was a champion ffs. Like I said he was marketed very well made to look good. They built up this persona, this fear. Lewis would have beaten Tyson at any given time. So would Holyfield. You are right Rooney kept him grounded he kept him in the gym away from the parties etc. Tyson ducked Lewis he had to pay him millions because he wouldn't fight him because he was scared. For man came out of retirement because he wanted to fight Tyson but Tyson ducked him to. Tyson told Don King I'm not fighting g that animal if you love him so much you fight him. He knew he would loose. You are right he could only fight who was there but there wasn't that many good fighters around which isn't his fault to be fair but when he did step up he lost. He should have knocked Douglas out but he believed the myth that Rooney and those around him had built up. What Douglas did was destroy that fear it made people believe he could be beaten and once that fear had gone there was nothing left. He was undisciplined, uneducated a great champion is more than just his trainer he has to have it inside and he didn't . Anyone can look great against a carefully picked opponent.

I disagree about Ali to as Henry Cooper once said Ali was the first to do the eyeball to eyeball stare out but he always had a twinkle in his eye and you knew he was joking. Ali and Joe were good friends. It was selling the fight showboating. Was the documentary champions forever where you have Ali, Joe, George, Norton and Holms all sat rough watching the fights and chatting. You can see how much they all loved and respected each other. None of it was meant it was all a laugh. When Ali was on I think it was parkinson and they bring out Joe. The two of them had great respect for each other.

#11 Herr Rararr

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 04:59 AM

Fair enough on Tyson....I don't know the Lennox Lewis story.  The thing is, King didn't own Lewis, he owned pretty much every other heavyweight (certainly US) at the earlier stages of Tyson's career...so he had no interest in Tyson winning, just on the legend and him showing up. It's sad really.

 

As for Ali/Frazier - look into it, there was severe acrimony there. Frazier spent the last 20 years of his life telling people that he gave Ali Parkinsons and he was happy about it.  It's fascinating, if not tragic.


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#12 myfinalheaven

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 02:45 PM

I'm going to call bullshit on the MMA bashing. Boxing gloves allow a fighter to cause way more brain trauma than an MMA fighter ever could. 


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#13 Nealio

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 03:17 AM

I'm going to call bullshit on the MMA bashing. Boxing gloves allow a fighter to cause way more brain trauma than an MMA fighter ever could. 

Really?



#14 Fender2.0

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 01:35 PM

I'm going to call bullshit on the MMA bashing. Boxing gloves allow a fighter to cause way more brain trauma than an MMA fighter ever could. 

 

Any UFC fighter would destroy ANY boxer in a UFC match. 


As far as the UFC bashing goes...I'm a huge fan. it's a brutal sport where two people are basically trying to kill each other. The fighters know what they are getting themselves into...that's why they do it. UFC fighters are crazy human beings and amazing athletes. It's great entertainment. 


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#15 Herr Rararr

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 11:41 AM

It goes both ways - a boxer would destroy a UFC fighter in a boxing match.

It is amazing what UFC fighters go through.
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#16 Fender2.0

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 12:40 PM

It goes both ways - a boxer would destroy a UFC fighter in a boxing match.

It is amazing what UFC fighters go through.

 

Agreed. I really wish the Mcgregor vs. Mayweather boxing match would happen. I wonder how long the match would actually last. I think a lot of people would be surprised.


Edited by FenderGuitarFreak2.0, 18 December 2016 - 12:41 PM.

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#17 sixgunsound

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 06:08 AM

I'd like to see Margaret Atwood fight that McGreggor fellow and then that McGreggor fellow write a novella. 


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#18 Nealio

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 07:14 AM

Putting a UFC fighter up against a boxer is about as ridiculous as you can get. Unless McGregor gets a hell of a lot of proper boxing training under his belt it will never work. Either Mayweather will easily, or McGregor will get disqualified for (accidental) rule breakage. He's not a boxer. He doesn't have the mindset of a boxer. And people calling for this fight really have no clue about how professional sport works. Whatever way you look at it, this would be a career change for McGregor. There's just no way he can train for 2 different sports and be successful in both. Whatever way it works out in the future, one will always be a distraction from the other.



#19 Herr Rararr

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 07:16 AM

Putting a UFC fighter up against a boxer is about as ridiculous as you can get. Unless McGregor gets a hell of a lot of proper boxing training under his belt it will never work. Either Mayweather will easily, or McGregor will get disqualified for (accidental) rule breakage. He's not a boxer. He doesn't have the mindset of a boxer. And people calling for this fight really have no clue about how professional sport works. Whatever way you look at it, this would be a career change for McGregor. There's just no way he can train for 2 different sports and be successful in both. Whatever way it works out in the future, one will always be a distraction from the other.

 

Right.

 

It's all McGregor speaking as well, Mayweather's camp have no interest in this at all - he's just piggybacking on Mayweather's name/credibility.  McGregor has a licence now but who'll fight him?

 

Incidentally, anyone see the B-Hop fight?  Man, he got literally knocked out of the ring - then again at 51 he's in infinitely better shape than I am at 31...


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#20 BrokenMirror

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 10:09 AM

I feel deeply uncomfortable with violence against another person being a sport. I know technically it's about skill and fitness and whatever, but on a base level it horrifies me.

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