Jump to content


- - - - -

U.K. General Election


80 replies to this topic

#41 sixgunsound

sixgunsound
  • Ombudsman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 38,771 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto
  • Donator:No
  • Original Name: sixgunsound

Posted 08 May 2017 - 12:19 PM

Valid point. Also the PFJ and JPF bit is one of my favourites. 

 

But while you're worried at the outcome of calling buts of the electorate evil, those bits are electing evil people. Can't help but calls it like I sees it; compromise is great when you're deciding on take away - on the lives of people I can't agree. Take what those crazy people in the USA just did. People will actually die. But heaven forbid we offend those that put the maniac in power. 

 

It's a catch 22 and likely why the hard left tends not to work within the party structure with any idea of ever forming government. Like really, if half the group keeps voting for evil revolution is inevitable. 


funny-pilots-blooper-airplane-comedy-pic


#42 spacecrumbs

spacecrumbs
  • GZ Regular
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,367 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Not there
  • Original Name: spacecrumbs

Posted 08 May 2017 - 04:16 PM

 

 

I know that's a joke website but that's extra ridiculous. Labour have always been a socialist party but we've never been a hard left party. The party is definitely being infiltrated by those who don't share its values. 

 

 

My Mum (generally never expresses political views but seems to like JC) tried to join and got refused lol. I'm fairly certain my mum isn't a revolutionary.



#43 richey

richey
  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,159 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Original Name: richey

Posted 12 May 2017 - 11:02 AM

Valid point. Also the PFJ and JPF bit is one of my favourites. 

 

But while you're worried at the outcome of calling buts of the electorate evil, those bits are electing evil people. Can't help but calls it like I sees it; compromise is great when you're deciding on take away - on the lives of people I can't agree. Take what those crazy people in the USA just did. People will actually die. But heaven forbid we offend those that put the maniac in power. 

 

It's a catch 22 and likely why the hard left tends not to work within the party structure with any idea of ever forming government. Like really, if half the group keeps voting for evil revolution is inevitable. 

 

I get the hatred, but we need to get real - you don't win someone's vote by calling them scum and saying they're responsible for people dying. And like it or not - and I don't, believe me - if we can't win over these people, we will lose again. If Labour can't win votes directly from the Tories, they will lose again. If we're saying we don't want these people's votes, THAT is what is going to give us unfettered Tory rule forever. And the same in the USA. Like it or not, the Democrats are going to have to change the minds of those who voted for Trump, or lose again. This isn't "selling out", this is cold, hard psephology. 

 

And that last sentence is the hard left all over. Let the right keep winning, undermine the left, and let things get worse and worse, and it just makes revolution more likely - it's just round the corner!  :yawn:

 

This is precisely why they shouldn't be allowed near a democratic socialist party who believe in trying to get into government. 


My anger is a form of madness
And so I'd rather have hope than sadness

#44 sixgunsound

sixgunsound
  • Ombudsman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 38,771 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto
  • Donator:No
  • Original Name: sixgunsound

Posted 12 May 2017 - 11:16 AM

Yeah, it's the conundrum of Marxism that Bolshevism sought to erase: revolution is hard and we can fix things slowly from the inside with peaceful marches (see 9 January O.S. 1905). Unfortunately Lenin's attempt to stir the spirit of the proletariat was at the barrel of a rifle. The dictatorship of the proletariat seems to be too comfortable for the dictator unfortunately as well. 

 

I'm certainly not against calling evil as such when I see it. If that dashes any chances at building a bridge with those on the right, then I regret it no more than my inability to build a bridge to Hades. Lenin may not have missed the mark by that much on retrospect. 


funny-pilots-blooper-airplane-comedy-pic


#45 mandible

mandible
  • GZ Regular
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,972 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Original Name: mandible

Posted 12 May 2017 - 02:20 PM

To be honest, you may as well just choose by putting four coloured mousetraps in a bag and shoving your dick in, at this point.

 

Obviously I know the ladies can't do that, but they shouldn't have the vote in the first place.


Posted Image

#46 Herr Rararr

Herr Rararr

    Herr to the throne...

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,957 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Herr, There & Everywhere (Chicago)
  • Donator:No
  • Original Name: Herr Rararr

Posted 12 May 2017 - 03:23 PM

:wub:
Herr Who?

Posted Image

www.soundcloud.com/christobaldo - music

"I used to be a legend but then I slipped into mediocrity..."

#47 richey

richey
  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,159 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Original Name: richey

Posted 14 May 2017 - 08:06 AM

Yeah, it's the conundrum of Marxism that Bolshevism sought to erase: revolution is hard and we can fix things slowly from the inside with peaceful marches (see 9 January O.S. 1905). Unfortunately Lenin's attempt to stir the spirit of the proletariat was at the barrel of a rifle. The dictatorship of the proletariat seems to be too comfortable for the dictator unfortunately as well. 

 

I'm certainly not against calling evil as such when I see it. If that dashes any chances at building a bridge with those on the right, then I regret it no more than my inability to build a bridge to Hades. Lenin may not have missed the mark by that much on retrospect. 

 

Don't get me wrong, there's a line in the sand. I have certainly been confronted by enough "evil" on the doorstep that I've told someone I don't want their vote (and may have used an impolite word as I left, put it that way). But mostly voting Tory doesn't necessarily make someone evil; sometimes it's swing voters that have voted Tory before and voted Labour before too - if we can't win them over we've lost. The great left-wing hero (in the UK) Nye Bevan famously said that the Tory Party are "lower than vermin" (people have that on T-shirts here) but he was talking about MPs, members, not just anyone who voted for them. 

 

As for the four different mousetraps etc. I get that not everyone is particularly keen on voting for Jeremy Corbyn, but unless you live in Islington he ain't on the ballot paper. There's some fantastic Labour MPs that we're trying to save. 


My anger is a form of madness
And so I'd rather have hope than sadness

#48 sixgunsound

sixgunsound
  • Ombudsman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 38,771 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto
  • Donator:No
  • Original Name: sixgunsound

Posted 15 May 2017 - 05:56 AM

 

Yeah, it's the conundrum of Marxism that Bolshevism sought to erase: revolution is hard and we can fix things slowly from the inside with peaceful marches (see 9 January O.S. 1905). Unfortunately Lenin's attempt to stir the spirit of the proletariat was at the barrel of a rifle. The dictatorship of the proletariat seems to be too comfortable for the dictator unfortunately as well. 

 

I'm certainly not against calling evil as such when I see it. If that dashes any chances at building a bridge with those on the right, then I regret it no more than my inability to build a bridge to Hades. Lenin may not have missed the mark by that much on retrospect. 

 

Don't get me wrong, there's a line in the sand. I have certainly been confronted by enough "evil" on the doorstep that I've told someone I don't want their vote (and may have used an impolite word as I left, put it that way). But mostly voting Tory doesn't necessarily make someone evil; sometimes it's swing voters that have voted Tory before and voted Labour before too - if we can't win them over we've lost. The great left-wing hero (in the UK) Nye Bevan famously said that the Tory Party are "lower than vermin" (people have that on T-shirts here) but he was talking about MPs, members, not just anyone who voted for them. 

 

Hmm. Yeah, I get it. I'm pretty torn on the subject, though. I don't wanna sound like a hater, but realistically everything has a best by date. To wit, when is our current system's? Our amazing "democracy" has given us an estimated 123 million war deaths in the 20th century alone. It has given us climate change. It has given us Donald Trump! 

 

Jaded? You bet. Ready to compromise with people for whom the idea of looking after the poorest amongst us is anathema? No. 


funny-pilots-blooper-airplane-comedy-pic


#49 richey

richey
  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,159 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Original Name: richey

Posted 15 May 2017 - 11:32 AM

 

 

Yeah, it's the conundrum of Marxism that Bolshevism sought to erase: revolution is hard and we can fix things slowly from the inside with peaceful marches (see 9 January O.S. 1905). Unfortunately Lenin's attempt to stir the spirit of the proletariat was at the barrel of a rifle. The dictatorship of the proletariat seems to be too comfortable for the dictator unfortunately as well. 

 

I'm certainly not against calling evil as such when I see it. If that dashes any chances at building a bridge with those on the right, then I regret it no more than my inability to build a bridge to Hades. Lenin may not have missed the mark by that much on retrospect. 

 

Don't get me wrong, there's a line in the sand. I have certainly been confronted by enough "evil" on the doorstep that I've told someone I don't want their vote (and may have used an impolite word as I left, put it that way). But mostly voting Tory doesn't necessarily make someone evil; sometimes it's swing voters that have voted Tory before and voted Labour before too - if we can't win them over we've lost. The great left-wing hero (in the UK) Nye Bevan famously said that the Tory Party are "lower than vermin" (people have that on T-shirts here) but he was talking about MPs, members, not just anyone who voted for them. 

 

Hmm. Yeah, I get it. I'm pretty torn on the subject, though. I don't wanna sound like a hater, but realistically everything has a best by date. To wit, when is our current system's? Our amazing "democracy" has given us an estimated 123 million war deaths in the 20th century alone. It has given us climate change. It has given us Donald Trump! 

 

Jaded? You bet. Ready to compromise with people for whom the idea of looking after the poorest amongst us is anathema? No. 

 

 

Whereas non-democratic systems such as fascism and communism didn't kill anyone in the 20th century, did they?  <_<

 

And again, I don't think people voting for right-wing parties is necessarily because they think looking after the poorest among us is anathema. Some might have a callous and selfish world view but I think most just vote for competence - for better or worse, people think the Tories (here) have got their shit together and we haven't. First you have to earn the right to be heard; earn people's trust. In short, people think the Tories are brutal but get stuff done. 

 

There's an interesting theory that we've moving away from the traditional left vs right economic split, to the biggest split in politics being open vs closed. Between open, liberal-minded people who are OK with immigration and working with other countries, and narrow-minded nationalists. This was certainly the split when it came to the EU referendum, which is casting a very large shadow over this election. Am I ready to get out there and try to win those arguments? You bet. (And I should say, cards on table, that I campaigned hard for Remain.) On the subject of Brexit, actually, there was an interesting theory from Dominic Cummings, the Director of the Vote Leave campaign. He wrote a long blog article on why he thought he'd won it, and he says "contrary to what the pundits thought, Ed Miliband was right that the tide has turned against free markets". I think he's right. Even the Tories here are promising to cap energy bills - the kind of market intervention from the state that would have been unthinkable in the 1980s and 90s. The New Statesman (influential left wing weekly) is calling Theresa May "the first post-liberal Prime Minister". 

 

With regard to Trump, you can see the same phenomenon - he attracted just enough votes from working-class folk in run down towns across the US angry with Wall Street to push him over the line. Yes, it's breathtakingly cynical and hypocritical, but he promised protectionism and that had its appeal. 


My anger is a form of madness
And so I'd rather have hope than sadness

#50 sixgunsound

sixgunsound
  • Ombudsman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 38,771 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto
  • Donator:No
  • Original Name: sixgunsound

Posted 15 May 2017 - 12:00 PM

Right, and so you have the perfect storm: large numbers of jaded voters (thanks to whose policies?) who are uneducated and disaffected (thanks to whose policies?) who rightly believe that nothing will change quickly enough to change their lot in life significantly who will vote for evil people. Sure, you can say, "well let's get them involved and bang on their doors. Let's bring them into the circle". Well to what effect? So they can vote for stupid shit like Brexit and Donald Trump? For starters, the average Joe shouldn't be voting on things like Brexit. How about some economists take that one to the polls? Maybe get the nurses and doctors to vote on NHS policies? I'm relatively well informed and engaged and don't think I should ever have a say in education policy. Is that too Socratic of me? Not sure. 


funny-pilots-blooper-airplane-comedy-pic


#51 richey

richey
  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,159 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Original Name: richey

Posted 28 May 2017 - 08:36 AM

I'm not saying "bring them into the circle so they can vote for Brexit and Trump". I'm saying campaign so they vote for us - for Labour, for left-wing parties, for Remain, for the Democrats, and the NDP in Canada. Because if swing voters vote for the right, we've lost, and unless we can appeal to them with a narrative they can buy into, they will, and being in opposition doesn't help anyone. The worst Labour government imaginable is still far better than the best Tory government. If we're going to think that principles are too important to compromise with the electorate then we condemn them to unfettered Tory rule; we let them down. I'm not talking about changing our values, I'm not saying let's sell out our principles - I'm talking cold hard psephology. 

 

As for referendums, I agree actually. There should never have been a referendum on that - it's too complex. Interestingly polls show a very clear split in voting patterns in the EU referendum by educational achievement - those with degree qualifications or higher voted Remain by a margin of 70-30, whole those with no qualifications up to GCSE level (the exams you take when you're 16 here) voted Leave by the same margin. 

 

Referendums are, for me, an abdication of responsibility from cowardly politicians who, in a representative democracy, are paid to make these decisions on our behalf. 


My anger is a form of madness
And so I'd rather have hope than sadness

#52 sixgunsound

sixgunsound
  • Ombudsman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 38,771 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto
  • Donator:No
  • Original Name: sixgunsound

Posted 29 May 2017 - 06:11 AM

Referendums are, for me, an abdication of responsibility from cowardly politicians who, in a representative democracy, are paid to make these decisions on our behalf. 

 

Hit the nail on the head there, you did. 


funny-pilots-blooper-airplane-comedy-pic


#53 richey

richey
  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,159 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Original Name: richey

Posted 29 May 2017 - 08:49 AM

:cheers:


My anger is a form of madness
And so I'd rather have hope than sadness

#54 gravity

gravity
  • GZ Regular
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,387 posts
  • Location:PTK Scotland
  • Original Name: gravity

Posted 01 June 2017 - 04:50 AM

I never really understood why everyone was being so hard on Corbyn.  And now I really don't get it. 

 

But anyway this election is a ridiculous cluster fuck.  I long for the days pre 2013 when us scots only had to worry about voting every few years.  I feel like I'm never fucking out of a polling booth.  Not that I don't appreciate that I can.

 

Yet again I find myself doing test drawings for crude abusive artwork I plan on adorning my ballot paper with next week.


BOOM

#55 sixgunsound

sixgunsound
  • Ombudsman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 38,771 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto
  • Donator:No
  • Original Name: sixgunsound

Posted 02 June 2017 - 07:57 AM

I watched a blistering interview with both May and Corbyn. I thought Corbyn was great. 


funny-pilots-blooper-airplane-comedy-pic


#56 Jay Kay

Jay Kay
  • GZ Regular
  • PipPipPip
  • 678 posts
  • Original Name: ReditusMusic

Posted 02 June 2017 - 09:23 AM

I am watching the cheeto justify his retardation, that's all that on 



#57 richey

richey
  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,159 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Original Name: richey

Posted 02 June 2017 - 11:30 AM

To be honest I'm long past caring about Corbyn. My local candidate is brilliant. Jezza ain't on the ballot paper round here. 


My anger is a form of madness
And so I'd rather have hope than sadness

#58 spacecrumbs

spacecrumbs
  • GZ Regular
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,367 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Not there
  • Original Name: spacecrumbs

Posted 04 June 2017 - 03:55 PM

Theresa May is saying some worrying stuff right now following the incident in London.



#59 sixgunsound

sixgunsound
  • Ombudsman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 38,771 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto
  • Donator:No
  • Original Name: sixgunsound

Posted 05 June 2017 - 05:32 AM

She's upset that the imperial ambitions of the UK have repercussions. 


funny-pilots-blooper-airplane-comedy-pic


#60 Herr Rararr

Herr Rararr

    Herr to the throne...

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,957 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Herr, There & Everywhere (Chicago)
  • Donator:No
  • Original Name: Herr Rararr

Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:20 AM

"London's full of no-go zones...ghettos...."

 
"Muslims are the problem, it's because you let everyone in..."
 
"This is why guns are important....British police can't respond..."
 
"You're obviously a liberal, but let me ask you this; do you lock your door at night?"
 
"Muslims need to disavow this, but they're not they're teaching it, Christians would never do this..."
 
"I've got friends in England who say it's terrible..."
 
"Really, you're not scared?"
 
 
It's been a fucking horrible couple of weeks. I'm sick of people telling me what my country is like, of how I should think and how I should grieve.  It's not Americans, it's Polish people, bizarrely.

Herr Who?

Posted Image

www.soundcloud.com/christobaldo - music

"I used to be a legend but then I slipped into mediocrity..."



Reply to this topic



  


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


Please consider donating to GuitarZone.com.
With more and more people using ad blocking add-ons for browsers, ad revenue has plummeted.
If you can spare even US$5 it would mean a lot to help pay for GZ's monthly server bill.
Thank you to all. Cheers! --Rob



Method #1: PayPal



Click 'Donate' above
to donate with any
major credit card or
existing PayPal funds.


E-mail on record with PayPal
[ ]



Method #2: Bitcoin


Option A )  Scan Bitcoin QR Code


Scan above box with mobile phone, or click...



Option B )  Copy and Paste Bitcoin Address

  13NA7exoZVPGBAxnKXcQAz35JQ5PvnhYDE  


Copy above address and paste into Bitcoin app...



Learn more about Bitcoin...