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4th string, 2nd fret buzz.


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#1 el_guitarist

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Posted 06 August 2002 - 10:34 PM

tried everything, changed string, pegs. do i need a new bridge??? dadfad, namredenef????

#2 badasstommyboy

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Posted 07 August 2002 - 01:30 AM

i had that on my old guitar, probably just a high fret. 2 options.

1) Take it to a guitar luthier and get him to lower it.

2) Tap it lightly with a hammer.

or your truss rod may need adjusting, but I'm too scared to try that one myself. I'll leave it for DADFAD ot someone like that.

#3 gusdotcom

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Posted 07 August 2002 - 01:24 PM

or you can...

1) Hit it a couple of times with a sledgehammer and then put what's left on fire.

2) Blow the damn thing to pieces with C4 plastic explosive.

No guitar. No problem!!!


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[ This Message was edited by: gusdotcom on 2002-08-07 16:26 ]

#4 lin_fang187

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Posted 07 August 2002 - 05:25 PM

ok, i just wanna say that i love gusdotcom's post!!! LOL!!!!!!! but really thats called a dead fret and i suggest taking it to a retailer or guitar shop and let them deal with it. just dont blow it up.....

#5 dadfad

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Posted 08 August 2002 - 03:46 AM

Does it buzz only on the second fret and no higher frets? Does it buzz on the second fret when played open? Does it buzz on the second fret when you finger the first fret? (I'm trying to see which end of the string is the possible problem or if it's the fret itself.)

[ This Message was edited by: dadfad on 2002-08-08 06:47 ]

#6 zomenn2000

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Posted 08 August 2002 - 04:51 AM

or your truss rod may need adjusting, but I'm too scared to try that one myself.


Never be scared of the rod.

1. Put your left hands index finger on the first fret and your right hands index finger on the 12th fret. Then position your point of sight exactly between both fingers looking vertically down on you fretboard. If theres a gap between your top E string and your fretboard you truss rod needs adjusting.

2.Most guitars Truss rod adjustment is under the nameplate on the headstock. Before you adjust the rod. You dont take your strings off. You lift the A string and place it in the top E string groove on the Nut so that it goes diagonally from the bridges A string groove to the top E string groove at the nut. Then lift the B string and place it in the bottom E string groove on the nut, then Lift D string and place in top E string groove. Then Lift G string and place it in the bottom E string. All strings should be in there normal groovse at the bridge and look like a sort of V shape with the strings going to the outside E string grooves at the nut. Now take name plate off with phillips head. Your now ready to adjust

3. Use allen key (They come with the guitar) and tighten quarter turn. (recheck)If still out tighten again. Only the slightest turn is usually needed.

4. Place all the strings back in the orrect groove on the nut careful not to tangle (if its a twelve string).

There you are easy


[ This Message was edited by: zomenn2000 on 2002-08-08 08:03 ]

#7 dadfad

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Posted 08 August 2002 - 06:40 AM

1. Put your left hands index finger on the first fret and your right hands index finger on the 12th fret. Then position your point of sight exactly between both fingers looking vertically down on you fretboard. If theres a gap between your top E string and your fretboard you truss rod needs adjusting.


I agree with most of your information except this part. A fret board should have a slight bow in the middle. This is to allow for the eliptical pattern of a vibrating string. The heavier the string, the bigger the relief required. The only time a neck should be dead straight is when it's made and has no strings on it. This isn't just my opinion, it's accepted practice by almost all good luthiers. Also, checking neck relief in that manner would not show a "back-bow" at all. The strings would still lie flat on the frets as you looked at them. I totally agree with you saying not to be afraid to tackle something like a truss-rod adjustment. As long as a person approaches it with a bit of knowledge and care, I think a guitarist should get to know how to care for and maintain his guitar. He knows what and how he likes it better than any repair person. A repair-guy's perfect set-up may be one the user doesn't particularly care for. If you're into being a guitarist for the long-haul, you should learn these things. That's why I've posted numerous times on how to adjust action, adjust a truss-rods and other maintanance items.
Also, most rods don't have an Allen screw under the head-stock plate. Most have a 1/4, 9/32 or 5/16 inch nut, with 5/16 usually considered the "industry standard" because that's Gibson's size and Gibson invented the truss-rod application. Some do, but Allen-heads are more common on body-end rods like Fenders usually have, both electric and acoustic.
One buzz on one string on one fret doesn't necessarily imply a truss-rod adjustment, although it could be. It could just as likely be a fret-lift or the nut-grove being too deep for that string gauge (the grooves also wear from tuning, etc, and the 3rd string is the worst for this, being the thinnest wound string on an acoustic), which is why I was trying to find out specific answers to specific questions.
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#8 gusdotcom

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Posted 08 August 2002 - 08:59 AM

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

or your truss rod may need adjusting, but I'm too scared to try that one myself.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Never be scared of the rod.

1. Put your left hands index finger on the first fret and your right hands index finger on the 12th fret. Then position your point of sight exactly between both fingers looking vertically down on you fretboard. If theres a gap between your top E string and your fretboard you truss rod needs adjusting.

2.Most guitars Truss rod adjustment is under the nameplate on the headstock. Before you adjust the rod. You dont take your strings off. You lift the A string and place it in the top E string groove on the Nut so that it goes diagonally from the bridges A string groove to the top E string groove at the nut. Then lift the B string and place it in the bottom E string groove on the nut, then Lift D string and place in top E string groove. Then Lift G string and place it in the bottom E string. All strings should be in there normal groovse at the bridge and look like a sort of V shape with the strings going to the outside E string grooves at the nut. Now take name plate off with phillips head. Your now ready to adjust

3. Use allen key (They come with the guitar) and tighten quarter turn. (recheck)If still out tighten again. Only the slightest turn is usually needed.

4. Place all the strings back in the orrect groove on the nut careful not to tangle (if its a twelve string).

There you are easy


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Put your left hands index finger on the first fret and your right hands index finger on the 12th fret. Then position your point of sight exactly between both fingers looking vertically down on you fretboard. If theres a gap between your top E string and your fretboard you truss rod needs adjusting.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I agree with most of your information except this part. A fret board should have a slight bow in the middle. This is to allow for the eliptical pattern of a vibrating string. The heavier the string, the bigger the relief required. The only time a neck should be dead straight is when it's made and has no strings on it. This isn't just my opinion, it's accepted practice by almost all good luthiers. Also, checking neck relief in that manner would not show a "back-bow" at all. The strings would still lie flat on the frets as you looked at them. I totally agree with you saying not to be afraid to tackle something like a truss-rod adjustment. As long as a person approaches it with a bit of knowledge and care, I think a guitarist should get to know how to care for and maintain his guitar. He knows what and how he likes it better than any repair person. A repair-guy's perfect set-up may be one the user doesn't particularly care for. If you're into being a guitarist for the long-haul, you should learn these things. That's why I've posted numerous times on how to adjust action, adjust a truss-rods and other maintanance items.
Also, most rods don't have an Allen screw under the head-stock plate. Most have a 1/4, 9/32 or 5/16 inch nut, with 5/16 usually considered the "industry standard" because that's Gibson's size and Gibson invented the truss-rod application. Some do, but Allen-heads are more common on body-end rods like Fenders usually have, both electric and acoustic.
One buzz on one string on one fret doesn't necessarily imply a truss-rod adjustment, although it could be. It could just as likely be a fret-lift or the nut-grove being too deep for that string gauge (the grooves also wear from tuning, etc, and the 3rd string is the worst for this, being the thinnest wound string on an acoustic), which is why I was trying to find out specific answers to specific questions.


My way was ALOT easier!!!!!

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#9 dadfad

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Posted 08 August 2002 - 09:11 AM

( :lol: Sometimes I think my life would've been a whole lot easier if I'd have just done it that way thirty-five years ago! :lol: )

#10 el_guitarist

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Posted 08 August 2002 - 10:35 AM

On 2002-08-08 06:46, dadfad wrote:
Does it buzz only on the second fret and no higher frets? Does it buzz on the second fret when played open? Does it buzz on the second fret when you finger the first fret? (I'm trying to see which end of the string is the possible problem or if it's the fret itself.)

[ This Message was edited by: dadfad on 2002-08-08 06:47 ]


it only buzzes when i play on the 2nd fret and it only does it for that string. thre buzzin seems to be coming from inside the guitar. possibly from the bridge.

this is an acoustic btw. so theres no truss. at least not an accesible one.

#11 dadfad

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Posted 08 August 2002 - 11:35 AM

##########################################

Lost that post and didn't save it!!!! %^&(*$#!

It was a fvckin' book too!!!! DAMN!!!!!!

#12 zomenn2000

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 01:29 AM

No need to swear DADFAD. OK thats how i was taught so your saying they taught me wrong.

#13 dadfad

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 05:17 AM

If they taught you a properly adjusted neck should be dead-straight, then yes they did. Also, for the method of checking, think about it. Let's ASSUME what you want is a dead-straight neck. If it IS, when you hold the first and twelfth frets, the string will lay on all the frets. Right? Now, let's say the neck has a slight back-bow (convex) (bad!), if you hold the first and twelfth frets, the strings will also lay on all the frets. That method couldn't show a back-bow at all. As far as the rod being adjusted with an allen-head (and believe me, it's not a bad idea but they didn't have allen-heads when Gibson invented the process), out of the approximately forty acoustic guitars I own, only a Fender acoustic and an Ovation have allen-head adjusments. My Taylor MIGHT (I don't remember, it's fairly new and I only adjusted it once, when I recieved the guitar as a gift from Taylor). All the others (Gibsons, Guild, Stromberg, Alvarez, etc) have a regular hex-nut. Generally the lower-end guitars. Martin is the exception. My Martins have NO adjustment. They relied on a U-shaped steel truss in the neck with relief set at the factory during final construction (I have heard that they are adding adjustable rods to some models now. Same with my electrics, my old Fenders and my Vox adjust with an allen-bolt. My Gibsons, Gretches, etc have a hex-nut.
I have no doubt that you probably were taught a dead-straight neck is proper. I'd like to say that in modern manufacturing methods, straight is much easier to measure than is fine-tuned ocillatory relief by a skilled luthier. Another thing I can think of off-hand. If you had guitar repair/construction training you were probably also taught to glue in your frets. Most shops and modern repairmen do. This would make a fine luthier wince or an old-school luthier turn over in his grave. They believed a well-crafted guitar would last a life-time and more, and in that life-time the frets would likely be replaced several times. They felt if frets were put in properly (exact slot width, proper tang cuts and correct bend radius) there was no need to use glue. And they were right. Nowadays, it's much easier (cheaper) to have un-skilled or semi-skilled workers glue the pre-cut fret-wires into the pre-cut fret-boards already mounted on the pre-cut necks. Do you know what tap-tuned bracing is? You may, but during construction in the past, luthiers learned to shave minute pieces off the braces and trusses to adjust tonal response before final assembly. It's not done nowadays (I've seen a few ads that say "We tap-tune our fine brand of...etc" but all they really mean is they check to make sure they're glued down tightly. Many corners have been cut, lots of craftsmanship and skill has been turned into simple processes to follow in the construction of modern guitars, even by the more expensive makers. There's a reason I (and others) play a vintage acoustic (or electric) guitar that might cost ten times more than a brand-new one of the same model, and it has nothing to do with collectability or the "cool factor". It's in the quality, the tone and the playability of the instrument. So, I guess to sum it up, I'm not saying you're wrong as much as I'm saying it's not the best way; as done, taught, and written about by instrument-building legends like Brosnac, Loar, Henderson, Kaminoto, D'Angelico and others. That's how I learned and that's how I work on my, or anyone elses, guitar. And I admit I'd probably never "make it" working in a modern facility, whether it's Fender or Ovation, or even Taylor or Gibson. :smile:



(Well, maybe Gibson's custom shop! :lol: )
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#14 zomenn2000

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 05:50 AM

I didnt have guitar repair/construction training I was shown by a friend how to adjust the truss who knows alot about guitars. I have two guitars a Fender Mexican Tele and a Korean Epiphone 12 String Rivera. Both came with Allen Keys when I bought them. Anyway I dont know much about olden day guitars, both my guitars where manufactured in the 2000s. Before that i had a Japanese Strat, that I wore out. Sounds like you have a nice collection of guitars. My guitars are machine made and mass produced in some factory in Korea and Mexico, and the craftmanship isnt the best. I havent had to deal with backbow in the neck, but you could tell because of string buzz on the lower frets. Backbow is caused by changes in temperature isnt it?


[ This Message was edited by: zomenn2000 on 2002-08-09 19:37 ]

#15 dadfad

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 07:57 AM

Zomenn, frequently it is (or humidity problems). Sometimes you find it on guitars left un-strung for long periods of time, where the truss-rod tension, with no string tension to balance it, pulls the neck into a backbow. Upper back-bow (around the 5th, 6th, 7th frets is the worst!). Zomenn, the way you are learning is the way I, and most people learn, plus reading as much as you can find, a little training if you can, and just experience with problems that come up. Because I have quite a few guitars now, and most of them vintage which I got in various conditions, I've encountered quite a few problems (plus I'm just an old-guy that's had a lot of years' worth of problems come up). The experience is probably as important as anything. A basic knowledge and understanding, plus a careful approach will solve most problems. When I come across some vintage project-guitar, I proceed first with a sort of Hippocratic Oath-type philosophy, "Above all, do no harm." Once you have the basics, you can approach the problem from past experiences and apply that and build on it. I remember when I thought replacing a few frets was a major repair. I still don't like to do it, but it's not bad any more. Even replacing a fret-board, while it still is a major-pain, it's not scary. I think we share the same philosophy, that if you plan to be a guitarist long-term, like for the rest of your life, you should have a good working knowledge about maintaining and repairing your instrument. Especially if you intend to have several (or more!). Too many people are scared off by neck-adjustments, fret-dressing, even action changes, where it's not really difficult at all once you know how, and the cost of a book and a few minor tools is less than one repair bill. But even more important than the money (to me) is that it's done the way YOU want it and not some repair-guy or factory-spec sheet.
It sounds like you're gaining experience and, more importantly, that you really want to learn. By the way, I don't know where you live or anything, but I know a couple of good acoustic repair classes in the eastern US for around $300 or so for a week of training if you're ever interested. Good typing with ya! :smile:

#16 zomenn2000

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 04:35 PM

Yes it is an Important thing to learn how to maintain your guitar, thanks for the advice.

#17 Merf

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 03:34 AM

Hi guys, Excellent discussion, Thanks.
One thing not asked is..."how worn is the fret?"
I'm happy to bow to your collective reasoning and obvious experiential knowledge (the only true knowledge) and have learned a great deal from your discourse. I thank you.
But! It seems to me 'el_guitarist' may be very new to his instrument? (it may be a second hand gift, 'hand me down' etc...) He/she may not have prior experience 'at all'.
I have a new guitar (to me) a second hand strat copy from Korea to supplement my '67 SA50 Yamaha humbucker shod (baby) I bought as a reck for NZ$50.00 27 years ago, My acoustic electric nylon stringed Ibanez new 26 years ago and my 2008 Johnson acoustic as I wished to try a guitar with single wound pickups. Us iRIG amp to practice.

Anyhoo, It also has a G string second fret "A" note buzz ONLY and there is considerable wear on the fret. so...?
Best regards
Merf

#18 Merf

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 04:02 PM

Hi Again, This morning I gave the third fret a small tap with a lightweight hammer. (I detuned and pulled strings across to the edges) It has removed 'most' of the fret buzz. Plays OK if reasonably gentle. May try a couple more taps on frets around the place after careful consideration and analysis. May ned to take to a Luthier for a setup, but it is good to learn what I can on relatively inexpensive equipment first.



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