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Rant Time!Gibson


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#21 guitarguy2001

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 09:43 AM

Alright: how about this, guys....

YOU PLAY WHAT YOU WANT TO PLAY. Eh?

#22 halfmoonbay

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 09:55 AM

QUOTE (ninjato @ Jun 29 2006, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You missed the part where it says:

(exceptions for those who can't afford it


It's not necessarily about 'not being able to afford a Gibson.' Thing is, when I've bought guitars over the past few years I know I could have afforded to go out and buy a Gibson instead. I just didn't. smile.gif

They make some fantastic guitars but I don't buy that they're necessarily superior than every other brand when it comes to satisfying every guitarist's needs or preferences. However, I suspect that one day I may well decide that I'd like to have a Gibson-esque guitar and then I'll probably end up buying one and adding one to the flock.
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#23 ninjato

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 10:01 AM

QUOTE (halfmoonbay @ Jun 29 2006, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's not necessarily about 'not being able to afford a Gibson.' Thing is, when I've bought guitars over the past few years I know I could have afforded to go out and buy a Gibson instead. I just didn't. smile.gif

They make some fantastic guitars but I don't buy that they're necessarily superior than every other brand when it comes to satisfying every guitarist's needs or preferences. However, I suspect that one day I may well decide that I'd like to have a Gibson-esque guitar and then I'll probably end up buying one and adding one to the flock.




Dude....relax, it was a joke. Just funnin' w/ ya.

#24 halfmoonbay

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 10:02 AM

QUOTE (kkatarn327 @ Jun 29 2006, 06:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Alright: how about this, guys....

YOU PLAY WHAT YOU WANT TO PLAY. Eh?


No, I want to play something else and be miserable about it. biggrin.gif
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#25 sot

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 12:08 PM

Fender makes decent guitars, but they aren't as good as gibsons. Are gibsons the best guitars? No, there are lots of smaller companies that make way better axes but among the large scale manufactuers they are hands down the best. I used to think fenders were comprable but after working in a music shop for a while that illusion quickly disapeared. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing fenders are really superior to gibsons in is surf guitar.


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#26 Matt B

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 02:20 PM

QUOTE (sot @ Jun 29 2006, 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fender makes decent guitars, but they aren't as good as gibsons. Are gibsons the best guitars? No, there are lots of smaller companies that make way better axes but among the large scale manufactuers they are hands down the best. I used to think fenders were comprable but after working in a music shop for a while that illusion quickly disapeared. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing fenders are really superior to gibsons in is surf guitar.



That's why I have an older Fender. I honestly haven't played very many new Fender's that I liked. But then, I've not played any Gibsons that I liked...

#27 badasstommyboy

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 09:51 AM

I think there's a good case of guitar snobbery going on here by a couple of people.

Ibanez make great guitars, as do gibson, and jackson, fender, and pretty much all the big companies. Each to their own what they prefer. So all you guitar snobs goin on about this company is better then this company lalalala, quit whinin and shut up. Thats what i think

#28 B.B. Hudson

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 09:56 AM

QUOTE (sot @ Jun 29 2006, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fender makes decent guitars, but they aren't as good as gibsons. Are gibsons the best guitars? No, there are lots of smaller companies that make way better axes but among the large scale manufactuers they are hands down the best. I used to think fenders were comprable but after working in a music shop for a while that illusion quickly disapeared. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing fenders are really superior to gibsons in is surf guitar.


Gibsons are often twice the price of Fenders. Are they double the quality?

#29 Grandpa FrankyZ

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 01:39 PM

QUOTE (mlogans91 @ Jun 28 2006, 08:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ok, this is kinda pissing me off, the whole "Gibson is so good!" thing. in my opinion there are plenty of guitars out there better than Les Pauls (e.g. Ibanez RG1570). I know that Les Pauls have "that" sound, but you could get that by just putting new pickups in a guitar half the price, one with a faster neck maybe? but what really bothers me about Gibsons is if you get any other guitar (Jackson, Fender, Ibanez) people don't think you're as good than someone with a Les Paul. who's with me?


How many Gibsons have you played. an d what were they, and why don`t you think they are not all they are cracked up to be. guitar.gif

#30 Grandpa FrankyZ

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 01:52 PM

QUOTE (B.B. Hudson @ Jun 30 2006, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sot @ Jun 29 2006, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fender makes decent guitars, but they aren't as good as gibsons. Are gibsons the best guitars? No, there are lots of smaller companies that make way better axes but among the large scale manufactuers they are hands down the best. I used to think fenders were comprable but after working in a music shop for a while that illusion quickly disapeared. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing fenders are really superior to gibsons in is surf guitar.


Gibsons are often twice the price of Fenders. Are they double the quality?


Most Fenders i have played have been prefered to most Gibsons. The only Gibson to Stand out against the Fenders i have had is my 91 SG Junior, and it is evenly matched against my Fender Tele Thinline, in playability, sound and feel. I Paid 800 for the Tele, and 450 for the SG. Most Fenders and Gibsons i have bought have been around the same price. The Prices for Gibsons go up really high when it comes to the Semi Hollows, whic go for as much as a Gretsch. At the end of the day what you look for in a guitar, is what suits you, and the name should not matter. I have recently bought 2 Les Pauls, one a Junior, and one a Special. I sold them on because i found them disappointing, my major mistake was actually selling the Richwood Les Paul Junior, which was a cheap knock off, which i now rate above both Gibsons, both in Quality, and playability, even the sound from their P90s was comparable.

#31 sot

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 01:54 PM

QUOTE (B.B. Hudson @ Jun 30 2006, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sot @ Jun 29 2006, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fender makes decent guitars, but they aren't as good as gibsons. Are gibsons the best guitars? No, there are lots of smaller companies that make way better axes but among the large scale manufactuers they are hands down the best. I used to think fenders were comprable but after working in a music shop for a while that illusion quickly disapeared. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing fenders are really superior to gibsons in is surf guitar.


Gibsons are often twice the price of Fenders. Are they double the quality?


Nah, more like triple or quadruple. that's just the workmanship, tonewise I would have to say infinatly better. For a custom shop fender you pay the same price or more for an equivalent gibson but they still don't sound as good.


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#32 badasstommyboy

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 02:17 PM

its all opinions tho at the end of the day though.

#33 sot

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 02:27 PM

QUOTE (badasstommyboy @ Jun 30 2006, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
its all opinions tho at the end of the day though.


Maybe, but at the moment, Gibson does not officialy endorse any artist and those they have endorsed over the years never recieve money, just equipment. The number of artists gibson gives guitars to is very, very small. By very small I mean a handful of people worldwide. For example, if Slash wants a les paul, he has to buy one (he does get a good price, when I worked at guitar center hollywood he came in a fair amount). Ibanez on the other hand pays about a dozen artists at any given time and puts thier guitars in hundreds of artists hands worldwide. The end result? The vast majority of the world's professional guitarists would rather pay to play a gibson than get a free one from Ibanez.


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Listen to my band, Murderland

#34 dadfad

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 02:45 PM

As you go into the realm of what is considered luxury or higher-quality goods (whether cars or clothing or guitars) there is typically a factor of "diminishing-return" on what is paid out for value received. Is a Cadillac worth three times the value of a Kia? Both get you from point A to point B (the main reason for owning a car), both with a relative degree of comfort. Of course there's a vast difference in many things between the two cars. Leather instead of synthetic cloth, less road-noise, more comfortable, more leg-room and storage, generally the Cadillac will hold up better and retain more value when it's traded in. But both get you from point A to point B, the Cadillac at three times the price. Is the return per dollar spent an x3 factor? Probably not, but the difference is obvious and those who buy and can afford the Cadillac will say it's worth it to them, that return-factor per dollar spent. Same with clothing. You can get a coat at Walmart for $30. Made by Chinese peasants in a sweat-shop work-house out of cheap synthetic nylon lined with... whatever... and a plastic zipper with crooked seams, but it'll keep you warm and dry in the winter. So will a better-department store coat at $90, but it's obviously better-made, more stylish and will hold up better. With a factor of x3. Possibly worth that factor, but then the diminishing-return question becomes even greater. A Brooks tailored calf-skin hand-stitched fleece-lined coat will keep you no warmer and cost you thirty-five times the price of the Walmart coat. Is it worth an x35 value received per dollar? Of course not, but there's a tremendous difference between wearing one over the others (and I don't just mean a "coolness factor" either.) The Brooks will fit perfect, it will move with your body and allow your skin to "breathe" as you move from outdoors to indoors and back again. As well as hold up for a great many years if properly cared for, long after the seams have let go and the zipper has jammed on the Walmart coat and the department-store coat is no longer stylish. To those who can afford the Brooks Brothers coat, there's very little question that it's worth the money. And those who can't or are unwilling to afford it generally will fail to see the return per dollar as worth the expenditure. There's a perceived value placed on many pricier goods in most cases directly proportional to the amount of money available to the potential spender.

And so the same thing generally applies to more costly guitars, like Gibson. A Gibson and a Fender (or a Squier) will all make a loud noise when you plug them into an amplifier. A good musician can make any of the three sound good, and a bad musician will sound like crap no matter which one he plays. But of course the three guitars aren't the same at all. Is the Fender worth triple the price of the Squier? Maybe. It does play a lot easier and has more punch in it's pickups and stays in tune better. Lets assume that x3 factor is "worth it." Now, as expenses go up even farther that "diminishing-return" factor begins to increase even more. Is a Gibson worth three or four times what a Fender costs? Probably not, by most factors. Probably a better guitar... as in better woods, better electronics, better craftsmanship (and a lifetime warranty), but is it worth an x3 factor? Will one Gibson last longer than three Fenders? Probably not. But there are other factors that are more esoteric and harder to measure... things like tone and "feel" and such. To those who absolutely prefer Gibsons, they will say that it is definitely worth the extra money spent. Take it another step. Is a D'Angelico worth x3 compared to a Gibson? Probably not, using that now even greater diminishing-return factor even though the D'Angelico is hand-crafted from start to finish by a single master-luthier, no corners cut, only the finest woods finished and smoothed inside and out with gold appointments and a flawless hand-rubbed finish. To a D'Angelico owner it's worth that diminished-return per dollar spent. Which is about x60 compared to the Squier. So it's all relative, what value you place on what and just how much you can or are willing to spend. What's good enough for that player. And to some, only a Gibson is good enough.



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#35 halfmoonbay

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 03:41 PM

QUOTE (dadfad @ Jun 30 2006, 11:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is a Gibson worth three or four times what a Fender costs? Probably not, by most factors. Probably a better guitar... as in better woods, better electronics, better craftsmanship (and a lifetime warranty), but is it worth an x3 factor? Will one Gibson last longer than three Fenders? Probably not. But there are other factors that are more esoteric and harder to measure... things like tone and "feel" and such.


I fully support the concept of diminishing returns - and it's inevitable that people will make guitar-purchasing decisions based on this. There will certainly be some people who can afford the 'standard' Fender but will not be able to afford the 'standard' Gibson. A Mexican Fender (or, an Epihone LP for that matter) gives sufficient return for these people to be reasonably satisifed with their purchase for the time-being, but they still may aspire to own a Gibson LP (or alternatively, that top-end reissue Tele) because they feel that extra quality is worth having if you can afford it. Those that agree with them and happen to have the money will already be playing those higher-end Gibsons (or Andersons, Suhrs, Jacksons, PRS, or whatever). Alternatively, there will also be some people who have a certain 'value for money' outlook that means they're never going to spend big money on a 'luxury item' like a guitar that's only going to be played in their bedroom once a week and that might sway some people towards a Fender workhorse as opposed to a Gibson (on the basis that they're usually cheaper). Whilst they may appreciate the quality of a Gibson, they're never actually going to go out and buy one (even if they could realistically 'afford' to do so).

Gibson and Fender do tend to have a different strategy when it comes to producing guitars. You can buy a Fender for virtually every fifty-quid price gap from a hundred pounds upwards, from the entry-level budget stuff through to the solid workhorse guitars to the rather nice higher-end models and the luxury custom shop models. Gibson on the other hand have attempted to plant themselves very much at the higher-end of the market, allowing the Epiphone brand to compete with Fender lower down the scale. Given this, you certainly would expect a standard Gibson picked at random to be of a higher quality than a standard Fender. That's not necessarily because Fender are inherently worse at making guitars, it's a marketing and manufacturing decision. If 'only a Gibson is good enough' it's because there's been a conscious decision to produce guitars of a certain quality/cost and maintain an element of exclusivity about the brand that is in contrast to Fenders guitars-for-the-masses approach.

However, I don't buy the fact that just because your average Fender costs less than your average Gibson that this necessarily implies that there is one single 'scale' of guitar-dom on which Gibsons automatically rank higher than Fender. Things get a bit more complicated as guitars aren't some homgenous product. Whilst they all tend to have strings and make a noise, us guitarists tend to believe that - quantifyable (or unquantifyable) construction quality issues aside - some guitars are perceived as simply being 'better' for certain sounds, styles of music, feel, etc and thus we desire to own the guitar that best meets our needs and panders to our personal preferences. (Actually, I suspect that in reality many guitarists also desire to own as many guitars as they can conceivably fit in their house).
There are lots of people who have plenty of money to spend on a guitar and yet still end up with a Fender. Are these people somehow irrational (the Gibson fanclub will probably say 'yes' smile.gif )? Or maybe they have simply decided that the guitar they really want to play happens to be made by Fender rather than Gibson (or whoever, it matters not). There will be some folk who will be able to afford to buy a Gibson yet will choose a Fender on the basis that they want a certain style of guitar that Fender tend to cater for and Gibson tend not to. Just as the bloke who really wants a Les Paul sound is never going to be happy with a Strat (be it Squier or Custom Shop), the bloke who wants a certain 'twangy' sound is more likely to lean towards a Tele no matter how many SGs they could afford. A guitar company can make as many fantastic guitars as they like but if they don't happen to meet the needs - whatever they may be - of a particular individual then that person is likely to choose something else.
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#36 dadfad

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 04:01 PM

Very correct, HMB. I used the brand-names more as vehicles for examples of the diminishing-return factor more than anything else. All quality guitar have a time and place and no one guitar, or brand, can fill every niche. I have three Fenders (four, counting my Precision Bass) and although I generally favor Gibsons, I wouldn't sell them and want to keep them because they fill a place in the totality of my guitar playing. Everyone has their preferences as to what fits the way and style they play best. Hopefully, no one will someday capture me and hold me prisoner and then saw off my head and give the video to Al Fendera TV to broadcast because of my beliefs!


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#37 ninjato

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 04:04 PM

QUOTE (B.B. Hudson @ Jun 30 2006, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Gibsons are often twice the price of Fenders. Are they double the quality?



A Mercedes is twice if not 3 times the price of a Nissan.....are they double the qualilty?

A Harley is twice as expensive as a Honda, are Harleys twice as good?

Edited by ninjato, 30 June 2006 - 04:04 PM.


#38 Matt B

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 04:49 PM

Adding to what HMB and John said, there is a level of fit/comfort and familiarity to most guitar player's choice of guitars.

I think that most players who start out with one type of guitar will end up going with that guitar or a similar guitar. I played an MIM Fender Strat for 4 years, it's what I learned on. Having "grown up" with that feel and that style of guitar, Strats still feel better to me than anything else. The scale length and the fret board radius fit better to me, because I'm used to them. Then, about two years ago, I stumbled across my current guitar (an '89 Strat Plus) and fell in love with it. Now... I've played Gibsons, Parkers, Schecters, Ibanezs, PRSs, Musicmen, and even a few Taylor T5's. And while all those guitars sounded good to me, even as good as my Strat in some cases, non of them felt as good to me. I think that's largely because of the differing scale lengths, fretboard wood and radius, and differing body shapes. I've never cared for the LP body shape, I prefer double cutaway guitars.

One of my good friends is exactly the opposite. He HATES the way a Fender feels, but loves his Paul. We both full acknowledge that we both have great guitars and that they both sound great, but niether of us can stand to play the other's guitar.

I would also like to add that in my experience once you start paying a certain price for something, everything you buy, regardless of brand, is going to be high quality. I work in retail (camping/hiking/skiing) and it's definately true there. If you spend $60 on a hiking boot, you can expect it to be crap. However, if you spend $150 you can expect a good boot that will last for years, be it a Garmont, Lowa, Montrail, Danner etc.... I'd wager that there is a price at which this holds true for guitars as well...

#39 ninjato

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 04:56 PM

QUOTE (matt_theripper @ Jun 30 2006, 08:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would also like to add that in my experience once you start paying a certain price for something, everything you buy, regardless of brand, is going to be high quality. I work in retail (camping/hiking/skiing) and it's definately true there. If you spend $60 on a hiking boot, you can expect it to be crap. However, if you spend $150 you can expect a good boot that will last for years, be it a Garmont, Lowa, Montrail, Danner etc.... I'd wager that there is a price at which this holds true for guitars as well...


Boy do I agree w/ that....when I dropped $2k for my first Taylor, I was screwed. Now I'm broke mellowno.gif noani.gif Up until that time, paying more than $500 for a guitar was a lot for me. I had gone out and dropped $1100 on my first steel string, a 1995 Ovation Elite. That guitar was my baby for almost 6 years. I didn't have anything else and evn used it for electric stuff thru a Digitech pedal. My roomates thought I was nuts to spend that much on a guitar, but the Ovation was a guitar I dreamed of owning since jr high school. Now I had one. It wasn't until late 1999 that I bought my first electric, a 1999 LP Studio and I still have it today (I can't get rid of my first electric ya know). I was happy for a while then went out and got a Balladeer 12 string and added the Takamine LTD2000 to the collection. It wasn't long after that I pined for a semi hollow a la ES335 so I got a Sheraton 2 when I started my jazz program. These guitars served me well. The song "Franklin's Tower" on my soundclick was done w/ my Ovation and LP Studio in 2001.

Well late 2001, I went to a guitar show and happened to walk by a Taylor Guitar booth. I picked one up and played a few chords. OMG. I was floored. I actually could hear the guitar over the ambient noise of the convention center full of people and other guitars playing. I knew the guitars I had couldn't even get there unless I was playing harder than I normally do, which can tend to make play worse. I went home and played my acoustic guitars and it was just totally uninspiring. They didn't excite me anymore after playing the Taylor. That was all I could think about. It wasn't long after that I came home w/ my 2001 710CE Coccobolo/Engleman Spruce Dreadnought Taylor.

I am now getting to the point where everything I have is unique enough to me and collectible enough that I won't lose my shirt when I sell them years down the road. It is harder for me now to go and choose a guitar. I have to always think about what I have and if I am duplicating something.

Edited by ninjato, 30 June 2006 - 05:15 PM.


#40 sot

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 05:05 PM

Everyone here is missing the point. Gibson guitars kick so much ass it's silly. tongue.gif

Sot, proud owner of 5 beautiful gibsons (and a couple fenders...shh) including my newest purchase, a 1958 custom shop goldtop reissue pictured in sig.


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