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Statement Regarding Legality of TabsWhat I have to say...


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#61 hippyguitarchick

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 06:01 AM

ya know....I believe half of the reason this site formerly existed is because many of the songs tabbed out are not even available to buy, so the NMPA is bitching about something they dont even sell! I have bought my share of published music interpretations, only to see that they are wrong and end up figuring it out myself in the end. What I loved about this site is that while there may be different interpretations of a song, you can figure it out between them for a basis, and its easier for me to understand. I am glad I printed alot of the stuff I wanted, so I have it. But this whole thing just leaves a bad feeling about the corporate excl.gif -holes that are wringing their hands, trying to figure out any way they can to get money. I am surprised that someone hasnt copywrited words so if you write or speak them, you have to pay someone. What is this world coming to? mad.gif

#62 Paul_Dinsdale

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 06:07 AM

This is total BS in what there saying. I myself as a guitarist have a big book of tabs ive written out with about 500 tabs in it.

Also I am friends with the lead singer and guitar for Blue Rodeo(Jim Cuddy). And I have been talking to him before about programs like Bearshare, Limewire etc, And his view on that is he dosen't care that kids download there music, but since they do that, they get more people that come to there concerts which since the record companys screw them over on the cd sales its great for them. It also brings up the pont of tableture, it will bring more people to there concerts cause every will have ethier gotten there music or whatever which makes money for the band.

I think the only reason that the MPA and NMPA, or on your ass's for this is so that the publishing companys, and record company can steal more money from what the band rightfully deserves.

Another thing is I think they are going at this along the same lines at the "Napster" Thing. WHich is totally biased, and nobey can stop free file sharing. Same as they will never stop Free Tableture Sharing, and the Right of Free music and tab.

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#63 zombieregime

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 07:05 AM

I say spread this “disease” the MPA thinks we are. I have a few old servers I could have online in a few days. Send me a copy of the database, I’ll send a copy to my friends in computing that will put it on there servers, who will send it to there friends. And so on and so on it will spread till they will have to bring thousands of people in to court. The judge will throw the MPA out. I’m not a man of words, I say when diplomacy fails, load up. They want war, then we’ll war!!!

I got one thing to ask the MPA, why you gotta ####### with my tabs?


BTW long time tab user, first time forum user.

#64 foamingpigeon

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 07:14 AM

QUOTE (voodoogav @ Jul 18 2006, 09:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (blackened10 @ Jul 18 2006, 04:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (voodoogav @ Jul 17 2006, 08:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (Jiveturkey @ Jul 17 2006, 10:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (Slayerfan @ Jul 17 2006, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, what they are telling me is that my 5th grade band teacher was a criminal for photocopying music to hand out to his students instead of buying a new copy for every student? We are not stealing music here. Sites such as this are a great way to share tablature. I just never thought being a musician would label me as a law breaker. I wonder if anyone at these so called "associations" know that they are loosing credibility? Do they even care? Keep fighting! Oh, wait...we might get in trouble for copying what Napster did by defending our own actions....

Technically yes, photocopying anything that is in print and under copywrite is illegal. Of course he's not going to be pursued or prosecuted for something so trivial but if the publishers did so wish then they would have every legal right. The tablature available on this site is differnt however as it is each person own interpretations (or so is claimed) and I highly doubt anyone could prove that they were otherwise. Also you really couldn't compare this to Napster. Napster made a serious dent in the profits of the music industry, there's no way sights like this could inflict anywhere near so much fianancial damage.


I realise this makes me sound like I'm on the side of the MPA while I must stress that I am far from that.

The problem is that this is still illegal.


HOW???


Because it is someone elses intellectual property that you are attempting to reproduce. I can't take someone's play, change a few words and locations and put on a free show. I can't take someones books, change character names and hand out free copies. This is in effect what we are doing. I don't believe it should be illgeal but it is.

The main argument that can be made is that most of the tabs availible on this site are not availible as published books and the accuracy of some books is laughable. If they want people to pay for the tabs then they need a guarantee that the tab will be perfect.


I kinda disagree with that first little bit. What we're doing isn't like stealing a play or rewriting a book. What we're doing is a step beyond listening to our favorite songs. We're learning them. It's not our intention to claim them as our own songs. I mean, I'm not going to hit the stage with Stray Cat Strut ever in my life, and I'm sure as hell not going to try to change it or claim that I wrote it. I just want to understand Brian Setzer's style a little better. I highly doubt the Stray Cats are going to be pissed off at me for respecting their music. And it really shouldn't matter at all because 90% of the tabs out there aren't even close to accurate. I do, however agree that it is really frickin' ridiculous. I mean, seriously, what's next? Paying for AM/FM radio?

#65 Phlegmatics

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 07:25 AM

i would pay for tabs if it ever comes to this... but I would only pay for tabs on this website. or taborama (if it ever comes back)

#66 in_repair

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 07:41 AM

Copyright Infringement

QUOTE
Whenever printed music is copied without permission, you are STEALING...

The Music Publishers Association (MPA)

Correct me if I'm wrong, I do believe it says copies, not interprets and rewrites to the best of their knowledge for personal use only. You know some contries have ruled that downloading music is not illegal so long as you don't make it public and use it for personal purposes only.



QUOTE
• What is copyright infringement?
Copyright infringement occurs when a person copies someone else's copyrighted items without permission. This would also include public display of a copy of copyrighted work.

http://www.lostquilt...fringement.html

I believe that it says copies there too.



QUOTE
in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly...

U.S. Copyright Office

The main intention of sites that produce tablature is to teach beginners how to play the songs they love. Not only is that the main intention of the site, but the majority of users looking for tabs are beginners looking for how to play the songs they love. I'm sure artists don't mind that a beginning guitar player wants to take up learning their song.



QUOTE
We have also heard that it would be too expensive to purchase legitimate tablature or sheet music for all of the songs that a player may want to learn. We are sure that these same individuals would not feel entitled to steal a sheet music book or a guitar from a music store simply because they want it but cannot afford it. Yet, anyone who patronizes these illegal web sites is stealing just as if he or she walked out of the music store with sheet music or a guitar.

The MPA

I think a much fairer comparaison is this:
Somebody is illegally downloading music. They get the file, open it, and find not the origional song they want, rather a covered one played by some no-name band that thought they sounded like the origional. You see... that's not the song they origionally intended to play. They got it because a band decided they would take an origional song and try and play it to their best ability. Which is what people posting up tabs on the internet are doing.

________________________

In Conclusion, reproducing copyrighted materials is illegal. But posting a tab on the internet is exactly the same as telling someone how to play a song. If you tell them verbally, that's not copyright infringement. So why should it be copyright infringement to tell them on pen and paper?

It's not copied material people are posting on the internet. It's interpretational, and most people don't use the entire tab, rather they try to fit their own interpretation into it. It's merely a guideline to try and learn the song, for the purpose of learning how to play a great instrument.

Artists themselves are the holders of the copyrighted material. I myself have not heard any complaints from them, just the MPA acting on "numerous e-mails" that they have recieved, which are completely undisclosed to the public.

Website tabs are a way for people to teach themselves how to play the guitar. If they don't have these tabs, then how are they to learn the guitar? They aren't good enough yet to hear a song and tell themselves how it's played. They don't want to go buy tab books for something they aren't even sure they will take up.

The MPA is simply an Association trying to take advantage of people so that they can make more money by selling sheet music. They brought up this complaint in the year 2005. There hasn't been any arguing about people interpreting other people's music in tablature, going back to, oh, the year 1300, the approximate time tablature was invented. It's an outrage that the MPA wants to take advantage of lower to middle class people based on "numerous e-mails" which just so happen to be undisclosed.



Thank you for reading,

Nick

Edited by in_repair, 18 July 2006 - 07:42 AM.



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#67 blackened10

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 08:00 AM

QUOTE (in_repair @ Jul 18 2006, 10:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Copyright Infringement

QUOTE

Whenever printed music is copied without permission, you are STEALING...

The Music Publishers Association (MPA)

Correct me if I'm wrong, I do believe it says copies, not interprets and rewrites to the best of their knowledge for personal use only. You know some contries have ruled that downloading music is not illegal so long as you don't make it public and use it for personal purposes only.



QUOTE
• What is copyright infringement?
Copyright infringement occurs when a person copies someone else's copyrighted items without permission. This would also include public display of a copy of copyrighted work.

http://www.lostquilt...fringement.html

I believe that it says copies there too.



QUOTE
in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly...

U.S. Copyright Office

The main intention of sites that produce tablature is to teach beginners how to play the songs they love. Not only is that the main intention of the site, but the majority of users looking for tabs are beginners looking for how to play the songs they love. I'm sure artists don't mind that a beginning guitar player wants to take up learning their song.



QUOTE
We have also heard that it would be too expensive to purchase legitimate tablature or sheet music for all of the songs that a player may want to learn. We are sure that these same individuals would not feel entitled to steal a sheet music book or a guitar from a music store simply because they want it but cannot afford it. Yet, anyone who patronizes these illegal web sites is stealing just as if he or she walked out of the music store with sheet music or a guitar.

The MPA

I think a much fairer comparaison is this:
Somebody is illegally downloading music. They get the file, open it, and find not the origional song they want, rather a covered one played by some no-name band that thought they sounded like the origional. You see... that's not the song they origionally intended to play. They got it because a band decided they would take an origional song and try and play it to their best ability. Which is what people posting up tabs on the internet are doing.

________________________

In Conclusion, reproducing copyrighted materials is illegal. But posting a tab on the internet is exactly the same as telling someone how to play a song. If you tell them verbally, that's not copyright infringement. So why should it be copyright infringement to tell them on pen and paper?

It's not copied material people are posting on the internet. It's interpretational, and most people don't use the entire tab, rather they try to fit their own interpretation into it. It's merely a guideline to try and learn the song, for the purpose of learning how to play a great instrument.

Artists themselves are the holders of the copyrighted material. I myself have not heard any complaints from them, just the MPA acting on "numerous e-mails" that they have recieved, which are completely undisclosed to the public.

Website tabs are a way for people to teach themselves how to play the guitar. If they don't have these tabs, then how are they to learn the guitar? They aren't good enough yet to hear a song and tell themselves how it's played. They don't want to go buy tab books for something they aren't even sure they will take up.

The MPA is simply an Association trying to take advantage of people so that they can make more money by selling sheet music. They brought up this complaint in the year 2005. There hasn't been any arguing about people interpreting other people's music in tablature, going back to, oh, the year 1300, the approximate time tablature was invented. It's an outrage that the MPA wants to take advantage of lower to middle class people based on "numerous e-mails" which just so happen to be undisclosed.



Thank you for reading,

Nick



exactly
the word copyright
copy right
did no on see that before
hot dam

voodoogav does have a point tho...
dam you...i dont bieleve it tho

its just like tellin a friend how to play a soong but u dont know that friend...


Soon the MPA or whatever that wire tapping company was is going to be looking at our emails and finding tabs,tracking us down, and calling us criminals


its all bull sh it

...the cat went to rehab

#68 dorio

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 08:01 AM

QUOTE (jumping_jack_splash @ Jul 18 2006, 02:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (dorio @ Jul 17 2006, 09:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (jumping_jack_splash @ Jul 18 2006, 01:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this is bad...but will the MPA ever listen?

Make them listen, don't buy their products!

would it be worth trying to get in contact with some famous musicians, and put forward an argument?

and yes, a boycott is in order!

I've boycotted all their stuff since the BBC article. I was a fan of the Hal Leonard songbooks collections but as they come under MPA's publications I'm not buying those books anymore. They're wrong to think online tabs Is a threat to their business. So let's hit where it hurts...

LET's BOYCOTT mad.gif

#69 aethos

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 08:08 AM

QUOTE (Graeme! Yes, Graeme! @ Jul 17 2006, 10:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why are so many people in this thread first time posters?


You want ironic actually? I was a first timer because I JUST joined for the first time and uploaded my first tab submission. I came back to see if it had been approved and saw the notice. I guess it's all my fault!

Edited by aethos, 18 July 2006 - 08:08 AM.


#70 psycopunk05

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 08:37 AM

dude thats soo freakin gay thats like sayin if u go out and buy a tabbook thats like just 1 artists songs that thats illegal too all this is is one big guitar book online. the freakin artists probably read other artists tabs for the hell of it. they are soo legal its not like ur gona become a big star and play all of the songs that u learned on a tab site no ur gona come up with ur own stuff. so i dont see the big deal with learnin tabs

#71 The African Pool Monkey

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 08:47 AM

Okay... it all comes down to this. The official definition of "copyright infringement" is a violation of the rights secured by copyright.

These rights are defined in Title 17, Section 106 of the United States Code.

17 U.S.C. § 106


Sec. 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works


Subject to sections 107 through 120, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:

(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;


(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;


(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;


(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly;


(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and


(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission


Now basically all they're trying to peg us with is number 1 in the list of rights.

"To reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords."

My response to this is that we are technically not reproducing this work. We are simply interpreting it and sharing our interpretations. It's the exact same thing as when you hear a famous quote or slogan used in a public speech. Every time that they use it, they make absolutely sure that credit is given to the owner and then give their interpretation of the quote. If we were to listen to the music, write it down, rename it, and then claim that song as our own work, then that would be an infringement of the owners right. As it is, if a person got a page of tablature of a song that they had never heard before, they could not use that page to replicate the exact song because tablature does not include any sort of timing.

#72 12stringman

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 08:50 AM

I don't how NMPA can be successful with this move. If we were actually copying sheet music and tabbing it note to note and charging people to download. If no money is being charged and the tabs result from people listening, learning to play a particular piece, and writing tabs to share, then there is no infringement. Another thing is that the published sheet music is usually rather basic and guitar solos are rarely printed and rarer still are they ever correct. I love the internet tab access. My guitar playing skills have taken off because of it. I wish it had been availiable back in 1974 when I first started playing.

Edited by 12stringman, 18 July 2006 - 08:52 AM.


#73 hrobinson

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 09:07 AM

Hi all. My dial up connection will keep me from fully enjoying this site but I wanted to comment on the tab publishing situation. If the lyrics were made public without vowels there would be no copyright infringement or suits possible. Since the MPA didn't invent the tablature methodology... their claim to chording can't be established in that format. Anyone mind adding vowels? Ys I knw thr wll b sm xcptns... smile.gif

I for one used to be able to read notes but that method fell from grace, so to speak, in my book. -Harry

Edited by hrobinson, 18 July 2006 - 09:14 AM.


#74 jimjimson99

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 09:12 AM

Just want to add my voice to the masses here:

I've only been playing for 6 months and pretty aside from a few songs learnt from friends, its all GTU and the free lessons from About.com..... 100% support against the rising wave of bullmanure - an email will be promptly written.

Someone mentioned a petition earlier - damn good idea, why don't we get one up on the main page or organise it on Guitar Zone?

Good luck people blink.gif

#75 SRVBasser1

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 09:17 AM

First of all, this is my first time posting on any forum whatsoever, But It will not be my last concerning any topic as crucial and important as this one. I have been using tab sites such as this ever since I first "discovered" the internet about 5 years ago. A thought that occured to me during this time was "I wonder when the record companys or publishers are going to jump on this one?". I turns out they finally did. I was not very suprised. It is (as previous posters have mentioned) about the all mighty dollar and not about this so called copyright infringement. I would not be surprised if this is merely the start of many more worse things to come. I would think that they are simply using scare tactics in order to try and buyout independent websites such as this in order to control the flow of information to suit their needs. They want to sell tab. Plain and simple. But how can you sell what people are giving away for free? By playing the legal card, hoping to create enough fear in the webmasters so they sellout thereby creating a monopoly. Fortunately it seems that we people will not go down without a fight.

Concerning the legal matters, I personally don't think we have anything to worry about. The lawyers can sort these matters out. Copyrights are very in-depth tedious matters that are very hard for the average person to understand and sort out. I think the interpetation argument is a very valid one but I think it can go even deeper. What about the way a person who downloads a tab interpets it? What if they play it wrong? What if they play it just as good but fail to do that hammer-on in the second bar? When does the integrity of the song come into play? If I write out a tab for my favorite song but completely mess it up am I still liable? What if it's perfect? Many, many, questions have to be answered in a court of law before all this can be sorted out.


BUT....
There are 2 sides to every coin. I wonder how much profit is gained by advertising on this site and others? Sorry to point that out. I absolutely love this site and DO NOT want it to go anywhere. Keep on fighting the good fight!

#76 jimjimson99

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 09:19 AM

QUOTE (Graeme! Yes, Graeme! @ Jul 18 2006, 04:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why are so many people in this thread first time posters?


I signed up because I need a tab (Radio Fly, Joel Plaskett Emergecy) and happened to see the notice today.

I'd guess that most people just want to get their tab and play it without a rse ing around, now some suits who have probably never done that in their lives want to shut the site down we have something we feel strongly enough to post about.

#77 willyd

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 09:46 AM

its the same old ######

money money en money


who pay for it

the people who love to play some music and would to learn some more songs


sorry

#78 blackened10

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 09:56 AM

QUOTE (jimjimson99 @ Jul 18 2006, 12:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just want to add my voice to the masses here:I've only been playing for 6 months and pretty aside from a few songs learnt from friends, its all GTU and the free lessons from About.com..... 100% support against the rising wave of bullmanure - an email will be promptly written.

Someone mentioned a petition earlier - damn good idea, why don't we get one up on the main page or organise it on Guitar Zone?

Good luck people blink.gif

Jesus Christ
doesnt everybody


before you post on this topic... go around the forum and post and when u get more... say uve talked it up in 3 topics
come back and then we'll talk
better do it quick,
this site might not be hear

QUOTE (jimjimson99 @ Jul 18 2006, 12:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Graeme! Yes, Graeme! @ Jul 18 2006, 04:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why are so many people in this thread first time posters?


I signed up because I need a tab (Radio Fly, Joel Plaskett Emergecy) and happened to see the notice today.

I'd guess that most people just want to get their tab and play it without a rse ing around, now some suits who have probably never done that in their lives want to shut the site down we have something we feel strongly enough to post about.


finally


look at all the fun stuff around u

Edited by blackened10, 18 July 2006 - 09:57 AM.


...the cat went to rehab

#79 purecork

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 10:11 AM

shocking news lads :s
i hope to see guitartabs.cc back soon. it definately had / is having a huge part to play in the development of my guitar skills. i hope to see it back soon smile.gif

#80 Gergely Pintér

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 10:24 AM

Helo!

nem hozza elő a tabokat nekem az oldal mi a baja az oldalnak? guitar.gif



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