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#1 waz416

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 08:46 PM

Bill Nye won the debate sort of kind of good for him
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#2 Major Major

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 09:01 PM

I heard the opposite

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#3 Seán

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 09:06 PM

I listened to the debate and it was extra boring from both sides. It was exactly as expected, they weren't speaking the same language so there was no way to actually compare their claims. Everybody lost in the end. 


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#4 Major Major

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:12 AM

Oh I think Ken Ham got exactly what he was after. He wasn't playing to win, he was playing not to lose. His goal most likely was to achieve tons of publicity, which he did. How many people will flock to the creationist museum now? Perhaps he can get the financial backing for his Noah's Ark theme park (actual thing)

 

Science on the other hand comes away with Egg on its face because it failed to convince those who weren't going to be convinced regardless. (Look at some of these questions for Bill Nye!?) They'd be funny if they didn't make you worry about the state education in the United States. 

 

For example:

enhanced-19479-1391576850-9.jpg

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enhanced-15285-1391576908-9.jpg


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#5 Seán

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 04:59 AM

The monkey one and the "theory" one are definitely concerning but I'm most offended by the sunset one because they don't mean to ask how it can happen (even creationists accept that the Earth turns and so that's how night and day happen) but they mean how can it be beautiful to look at if not for a god, as if beauty isn't something we define for ourselves.


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#6 TheNewSponge

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 05:32 AM

Also, "if their is no God"... Shameful. My isnogod is better than their isnogod. 



#7 maungabluesy

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 09:50 AM

I dont see how science comes away with egg on any surface areas from failing to convince the unconvinceables.  I think that reaction is a danger of the us vs them mentality, there has to be a winner and a loser right?


The monkey one and the "theory" one are definitely concerning but I'm most offended by the sunset one because they don't mean to ask how it can happen (even creationists accept that the Earth turns and so that's how night and day happen) but they mean how can it be beautiful to look at if not for a god, as if beauty isn't something we define for ourselves.

 

Slightly at risk of playing devil's advocate here, but sometimes what we perceive as beautiful can be explained through evolutionary advantage, sometimes it cant, and I guess they're trying to fill in the blanks with "god".


c0dbbba7-6a32-4bda-887e-db2eac32d0af.jpg

 

 

 


#8 Seán

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 10:20 AM

My concern is more with the subjective nature of beauty, and how a person cannot help but define that for themselves and so I don't see how it can be god's call either way. This is particularly true if you allow for a god-given free will, so it's not even anti-religious to say that the it's really up to you if you think a sunset looks nice and god isn't concerned either way. 

 

That's my really polite way of telling that guy he can go fuck himself because he doesn't get to tell me what I like to look at. 


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#9 maungabluesy

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 11:03 AM

No of course he doesn't, but....you do like looking at sunsets don't you?


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#10 Major Major

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 11:06 AM

I want to answer this for you, Bluesey. I do.  Not sure how to best approach it. this may meander.

 

It is, to a degree, an "Us vs Them" but its a conflict largely of their own making. People should be allowed to believe whatever they like. and I will respect their beliefs enough not to challenge them or try to disabuse said people of those beliefs. But for the most vocal of the fundamentalists "live and let live" isn't the order of the day. They aren't satisfied with tax breaks, They want schools, state funded schools, to preach their version of reality to children. They want their ideas to be given complete freedom of reign on society and they defend this attitude on the basis of moral rightness. 

 

Science steps in and says "We'd prefer to teach that which can be falsified by anyone" And the Fundies say "Well then, prove that we're wrong, You can't?? then you're trying to oppress us. This is a war against our beliefs and morals and everything else this country was built on!!" 

 

They have a large impact on which laws get made in the US, If you took a poll to see who opposes Gay Marriage in the US Im sure the majority would be the religious opposing a value system they don't agree with because a very old book who's values haven't adapted with time and society has told them not to.  

 

They, The Fundies, Want more power in govt which equates to power over everyone, and they want little to no interference in how they conduct themselves. I.E. whether or not they should have to take their children to the hospital when they're sick or dying. They get offended when people say "Happy Holidays" but have no compunction about telling others "Merry Christmas"

They blame natural disasters (hurricanes, earthquakes and such) on the people who are most affected and then refuse to send them financial aid, but will in the same breath request aid when they're the ones whose "faith is being tried".

 

If there is an US Vs Them Dichotomy, then They have orchestrated it. 

 

But as slow as progress is, there is still progress and that kind of thinking is slowly, painfully slowly, eroding. And they know it. So, debates like this are orchestrated. It injects new life blood into a set of ideas that should be left to live or die on their own. 

 

 

 

Let me explain the "egg on face comment". Science could never win such a debate because for Them facts, and evidence don't enter into it. the opposing position is unassailable. They can always rely on the "If you weren't there, then you can't prove it was so and therefore my theory is of equal viability" argument. This argument gets employed all the time, it was employed in this debate. 

So then, What was to be gained from two parties preaching to their respectively converted? 

 

 

 

 

I have no issue with the beliefs of others. I respect everyone enough to not try and dismantle that which allows them to function. but I do object when belief systems try to effect my life. 


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#11 Seán

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 11:33 AM

No of course he doesn't, but....you do like looking at sunsets don't you?

 

They're alright I guess but by definition they're constantly in a state of leaving and I have abandonment issues so looking at them makes me sad and it's why I can't bring myself to unfriend my ex from facebook but had to remove her from my newsfeed you know?


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#12 Major Major

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 02:24 PM

Judge fired after ordering that Baby's name be changed from Messiah to Martin.

 

What I took from this is that we have an example of the unidirectional effect on behavior that Fundy (Im coining this, please start using it in your Day to Day) Fundy religious thinking can have: 

A religious view, wielded by a state sanctioned power, applied without consideration to and therefore limiting the rights of others.

 

While the other side, in optimistic theory, would at least attempt to remove personal bias's from the matter.


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#13 maungabluesy

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 02:38 PM

I want to answer this for you, Bluesey. I do.  Not sure how to best approach it. this may meander.

 

It is, to a degree, an "Us vs Them" but its a conflict largely of their own making. People should be allowed to believe whatever they like. and I will respect their beliefs enough not to challenge them or try to disabuse said people of those beliefs. But for the most vocal of the fundamentalists "live and let live" isn't the order of the day. They aren't satisfied with tax breaks, They want schools, state funded schools, to preach their version of reality to children. They want their ideas to be given complete freedom of reign on society and they defend this attitude on the basis of moral rightness. 

 

Science steps in and says "We'd prefer to teach that which can be falsified by anyone" And the Fundies say "Well then, prove that we're wrong, You can't?? then you're trying to oppress us. This is a war against our beliefs and morals and everything else this country was built on!!" 

 

They have a large impact on which laws get made in the US, If you took a poll to see who opposes Gay Marriage in the US Im sure the majority would be the religious opposing a value system they don't agree with because a very old book who's values haven't adapted with time and society has told them not to.  

 

They, The Fundies, Want more power in govt which equates to power over everyone, and they want little to no interference in how they conduct themselves. I.E. whether or not they should have to take their children to the hospital when they're sick or dying. They get offended when people say "Happy Holidays" but have no compunction about telling others "Merry Christmas"

They blame natural disasters (hurricanes, earthquakes and such) on the people who are most affected and then refuse to send them financial aid, but will in the same breath request aid when they're the ones whose "faith is being tried".

 

If there is an US Vs Them Dichotomy, then They have orchestrated it. 

 

But as slow as progress is, there is still progress and that kind of thinking is slowly, painfully slowly, eroding. And they know it. So, debates like this are orchestrated. It injects new life blood into a set of ideas that should be left to live or die on their own. 

 

 

 

Let me explain the "egg on face comment". Science could never win such a debate because for Them facts, and evidence don't enter into it. the opposing position is unassailable. They can always rely on the "If you weren't there, then you can't prove it was so and therefore my theory is of equal viability" argument. This argument gets employed all the time, it was employed in this debate. 

So then, What was to be gained from two parties preaching to their respectively converted? 

 

 

 

 

I have no issue with the beliefs of others. I respect everyone enough to not try and dismantle that which allows them to function. but I do object when belief systems try to effect my life. 

 

Surely all that is all the more reason to try and engage in the debate, rather than seek distance from it and let them go about their business unimpeded?  Two things: 1. the chances of succesfully changing their minds might be very small, but it's bigger than the zero chance that lies in not engaging; 2. No debate takes place in a vacuum, there is an audience watching, listening, reading.


 

No of course he doesn't, but....you do like looking at sunsets don't you?

 

They're alright I guess but by definition they're constantly in a state of leaving and I have abandonment issues so looking at them makes me sad and it's why I can't bring myself to unfriend my ex from facebook but had to remove her from my newsfeed you know?

 

 


c0dbbba7-6a32-4bda-887e-db2eac32d0af.jpg

 

 

 


#14 Major Major

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 03:52 PM

I think trying to change the minds of the fundy is an exercise in futility. yes a small minority might start to sway but the vast majority will be unmoved and it effect will be massively disproportionate to the amount of resources energy invested. 

 

I think Fundys should be allowed to come around or not of their own volition. Their attitudes will alter on their own as they are far too dated to survive in the modern world. In the meantime, what's important for secular movements is to make sure there is proper separation of Church and Stat, That there are standards for education that also observe the previous and that those who do make the transition from more exotic beliefs have a support system in place to help them negotiate a world views different from the one they've been immersed in all their lives. 


Edited by Stormageddon, 06 February 2014 - 03:52 PM.

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#15 waz416

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 04:58 PM

I come from an Islamic monarchy with zero democracy or room for religious freedoms. Yet in my science n later biology classes even I was taught evolution and creation of earth via Big Bang. Yes I was also taught genesis but only in my Islamic studies courses. The regression in this country is alarming. I can't believe it's being debated that we teach this in schools.
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#16 BrokenMirror

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 12:50 AM

Arguing with creatonists is an exercise in futility. It's like having a boxing match with someone who covers their eyes and screams "you can't see me!". The best thing is just to walk away, shaking your head sadly.


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#17 Major Major

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 01:14 AM

or.. or ...or...mug them. 


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#18 BrokenMirror

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 01:57 AM

Only if they have money. Stupid people often don't.


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#19 maungabluesy

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 01:58 AM

I dunno, there's some very stupid very rich people
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#20 TheNewSponge

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 07:05 AM

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